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Sandy Witt
25-03-04, 23:23
Hej listers,

I would appreciate some clarification about an entry (actually two entries) in the HisKi marriage records for Johan Pehrsson Lassfolk (1797-1862) and Anna Caisa Petersdr Gäddvik.

Under the Lappfjärd marriage records, they are listed as follows:

Announce: 16.12.1821 Marr: 1821 Bde:s Johan Pehr:s Lassfolk Bde dr Anna Caisa Petersdr Gäddvik

There is the following listing (for the same persons, I assume) in the Sideby marriage records:

Married: 10.2.1822 Village Sideby Bd.s. Joh. Perss. Lassfolk Bd.dr Anna Caisa Pers:dr. Gäddvik Village: Sideby

Question: Does this mean that the pending marriage was announced in Lappfjärd on 16 December 1821 but the actual wedding took place in Sideby on 10 February 1822?

I don't completely understand the "announcement" process and why the announcement was recorded in Lappfjärd, unless Sideby was a village in the larger Lappfjärd "governmental unit" at the time.

I have noted several other couples with similar listings, and would appreciate any information that someone could provide that would allow me to better understand these records, including the marriage-announcement procedure in Finland.

Thanks.

Sandy

staffan
26-03-04, 00:45
Sandy,

The Lappfjärd Hiski records including the records of Sideby of which you gave an example are contained in the book of marriages 1754-1836 in the Lappfjärd church archive I'd say after consulting Holmberg 1986.


Question: Does this mean that the pending marriage was announced in Lappfjärd on 16 December 1821 but the actual wedding took place in Sideby on 10 February 1822?

Yes, the dates are correct but I suggest the announcing took place in the Sideby church.

It was a procedure to announce a wedding (sw. lysning, eng. banns) on three consecutive Sundays. There is a short explanation at http://www.rootsweb.com/~swewgw/facdic02.htm . Somebody else on this forum might like to elaborate the details and meaning of this procedure better.

Source:
Karl Axel Holmberg: Mål och bygd i Sideby, p. 39. Almqvist & Wiksell International 1986, Stockholm, Sweden

Sandy Witt
26-03-04, 01:24
Thanks so much, Staffan,

I appreciate the link, that has a lot of helpful genealogical information.

You wrote that the announcement was probably made at the Sideby Church. At the top of the Lappfjärd (male "Lassfolk") marriage section, the following information is listed under the top line:

Married: 1814
Village: Sideby kapell
Man: Bondes. Matts Pehrsson Lassfolk

No wife is listed for Matts and this is the only listing that contains the "Sideby kapell" designation under "village," which is also somewhat confusing to me. Does the reference to the Sideby kapell apply to all of the names listed on this sheet?

Sandy

staffan
26-03-04, 01:59
Sandy,

Most of the Lassfolks were very probably married in Sideby even if the first reference to Sideby kapell does not apply to all names listed. Sideby kapell was a designation synonymous with the church village of Sideby. I don't know the reason why the wife of Mats Persson Lassfolk is omitted. She was Karin Michelsdotter Storteir b. 1.12.1793. They were married on 15.6.1814.

Sandy Witt
26-03-04, 02:28
Tack igen, Staffan,

I didn't think that the "Sideby kapell" necessarily applied to everyone on the list, but the omission of the name of the wife of Matts Pehrsson Lassfolk confused me. Thank you for giving me her name (etc.)

Just out of curiosity, did you find her name on HisKi?

Sandy

staffan
26-03-04, 02:39
Sandy,

Nope, I found her in Holmberg 1986. Holmberg has everything and is far superior to HisKi :)

Sandy Witt
26-03-04, 04:10
Thanks, Staffan,

Yes, Holmberg is a wonderful resource; I found them on page 186 in the Holmberg book.

I also found Mats (blev husbonde på Lassfolk efter fadern) and Catharina in the 1998 Gunnar Nybond Book, Skaftung by i Kristinestad: Släkterna Sundnäs och Teirfolk, on page 118. However, he lists her name as "Catharina (Caisa) Michelsdotter LILLTEIR," not Storteir.

You can probably explain the discrepancy (Lillteir or Storteir).

Or perhaps it is not a discrepancy but a further indication of my state of chronic confusion when it comes to finlandssvenska naming conventions.

Sandy

staffan
26-03-04, 14:27
Yes, Sandy, you have detected a discrepancy between Holmberg 1986 and Nybond 1998. If we follow the compilations of the communion books by Karl Axel Holmberg we get the following outline:

pre 1732 -----------------------------Teir----------------------------------
1732-1784 --------------Teir I-----------------------------Teir II-----------
1784-1834 ----Storteir I-----Storteir II-----------Lillteir I------Lillteir II

and Karin Michelsdotter born on Storteir II. Karin Michelsdotter's father Michel Michelsson was born in Vittisbofjärd and she married Mats Persson on Nylassfolk.

I am inclined to think that Gunnar Nybond in this case (by accident) has mixed up Storteir II and Lillteir.

Sandy Witt
26-03-04, 14:46
Staffan,

I appreciate your explanation.

The Teir Farm timeline is good information to have since I have Teirs, Teirfolks, Storteirs, and Lillteirs in my family.

BTW: It appears that Mats Pehrsson Lassfolk is your third great grand uncle and my fourth great grand uncle.

Sandy

staffan
26-03-04, 15:32
Sandy,

It is true. Mats Persson's younger brother Johan Persson Lassfolk b. 23.1.1797 is my mfff. Their sister Brita b. 15.3.1799 is your ffmmm. Their father Per Persson Teirfolk b. 28.10.1762 came from Teirfolk in Skaftung http://sydaby.eget.net/eng/nybond/teirfolk.htm

Sandy Witt
27-03-04, 01:26
Staffan,

Your response about our common ancestor, Per Persson Teirfolk Lassfolk, raises another question I have about how to list the names of my Finnish ancestors and relatives in my genealogy files.

I have entered Per (Pehr) Pehrson Teirfolk as "Pehr Pehrsson Teirfolk Lassfolk" in my file because Nybond (Skaftung by i Kristinestad, 1998, pp. 118-119) wrote the following about him: "Pehr Pehrsson Teirfolk gifte sig 18.12.1787 med Birgitta (Brita) Johansdotter Lassfolk i Sideby, f. 28.5.1767, och flyttade som måg till hennes hemgård samt övertog gårdens namn som sitt tillnamn. Han heter altså i fortsättningen Pehr Lassfolk. Pehr dog 16.10.1830 och hustrun Brita 29.5.1935..."

Should I list his last name as his original farm name (Teirfolk) or list the name of the farm where he moved (lived and married)?

I am afraid that I have not been consistent regarding this issue and appreciate any input that you or another kind person on this list might have about this issue.

Sandy

granskare
27-03-04, 01:35
Lappfjärders in America thread in this genealogy [eng] section has some Teir people in it. Kaj corrected my spelling of one of them from Tier [good english word] to the unfamiliar Teir:)
I just counted six Teir people there so maybe somebody for you there?
Chuck

Sandy Witt
27-03-04, 01:47
Chuck,

Thanks for the information about Teirs in the "Lappfjärders in America" messages in the forum. I will check them out; perhaps I will find some more relatives.

And - like you - I have made the same spelling mistake.

Sandy

granskare
27-03-04, 04:11
I will go back to the records and get the kids as well so as to complete the record.

Right now I am doing the same for Ålanders at Iron Mountain.
Chuck

staffan
27-03-04, 13:56
Sandy,

I would use Lassfolk as his last name. It was both his name when married and the name he himself and others used. BTW, the dialectal form of Lassfolk in Sideby is Lasok, so I guess he in accordance with the spoken conventions here was commonly called Lasok-Petter or Lasok-Per. My grandfather, the great grandson of Lasok-Petter, was always called Lasok-Axel. He resided like Lasok-Petter at Nylasok. Designations like Teirfolk-Lassfolk, Lassfolk-Teirfolk etc are rather modern creations. There are of course no restrictions how you list him, however, it is first of all as you are aware of important to be consistent when using names in computerized files.

staffan
27-03-04, 14:01
Hi Chuck,

At a first glance I recognize several, if not all of the Teir, Sjuls, Siiro etc people in your list as originating from Härkmeri village in Lappfjärd. I am sure some of them are documented in the local history and genealogy books by Gunnar Nybond, Axel Byholm and others and I will check (granska) them at a suitable occasion and send you additional information if you like.

Sandy Witt
30-03-04, 04:19
Thanks, Staffan,

It is interesting to learn about Lasok-Petter (or Lasok-Per).

I realize the importance of consistency. I have tried to add the name of the farm where someone settled in my genealogy lists. The main difficulty I encounter with this issue is when I do not have information about where a person settled (or married, etc.) after their initial birth information.

Is it correct (in your opinion) to list the "Teirfolk" (where he was born) name before the "Lassfolk" (where he settled, married and raised a family) name in the family records?

Sandy

staffan
01-04-04, 21:49
Sandy,

If it does not conflict with the sorting procedures of your genealogy program, and why should it, but instead adds valuable information, it is of course all right to use Teirfolk Lassfolk (not the designation Teirfolk-Lassfolk). I suppose that there are so many different genealogy applications that it is difficult to propose any generic rules how to input names. It comes to mind that the Gedcom might provide generic rules. I am not myself familiar with the logic behind the Gedcom file format but at http://genealogy.about.com/library/weekly/aa110100a.htm you can read about it.

granskare
02-04-04, 00:31
http://www.netexpress.net/~cmaki/kaj/

This is the updated .xls spreadsheet for the list with families included and my errors repaired.
Kaj is checking it as I write this, hmm, 12:36 in Finland so mabye he is not checking as I write this at 4:36 pm cst
Once it gets past Kaj, I will pass it along to Hasse who will replace the initial list.

Chuck