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View Full Version : Liminka/Limingo and the communion book discussion



kpaavola
18-12-04, 13:41
Help me to understand. If rippikirjat records exist for a parish, let's say Liminka, from 1720 and forward, then a request for someone living during 1800 should be reasonable, right? Maybe the better question to ask would be if records exist beginning in a certain year then does that mean the parish also existed as a separate, independent parish as well beginning with that year?

The reason I ask is in Liminka's response, they said the request was too old which I understood to mean that I was asking for information that was not available to them.

I've ordered films for Liminka parish that begin with 1721 and my ancestor moved into Liminka in 1803. His marriage appears, his children's records appear and his death record appears. None of the entries list his patronymic nor where he came from.

Liminka suggested that I contact Oulu parish (Liminka's parent parish?) for information, but made it sound like Liminka didn't have access to records that old but Oulu might. Does that make sense? Also, if I have viewed the rippikirjat and birth/marriage/death films myself, would they(Oulu) have any additional resources available that might have clues? I know HisKi doesn't have moving records for most parishes. Was it normal for all parishes to keep that information? And lastly, is it reasonable that I should contact Oulu parish if Liminka records exist on film for the time period I'm seeking?

Thanks (and sorry, Karen, for hijacking your thread :) )

Kaj Granlund
19-12-04, 12:15
This is very general information and difficult to say what applies to your interest now.
This is how it should be, BUT there will be local variations much depending on the vicar or chaplain.

1) If a ”rippikirja” / ”Kommunionbok” exists for a parish it means that the parish was founded. Most of the parishes in this area are founded as “chapel-parishes” during 1700 and got independent about 100-150 years ago. A chapel means that the vicar is in another parish but the chapel is rather independent and is to take care of the records itself. (But if there was no chaplain for a time period the records were kept in the parish of the vicar). So making a request for somebody in 1800 is reasonable (unless the records have disappeared). But it might also be possible that the parentparish kept the records.

2) If you got the information that Oulu might have some more then it seems reasonable, for some reason that I don’t know.

3) Moving records were to be kept, but seem to have be rare during 1700. After the war 1809 it seems the moving records were taken into use. Exampel: Here in Esse they start in 1811. BUT we have the moving letters/certificates from 1734 (for those that didn’t move on to another place). So in some parishes these certificates might still exist. And they usually contain a lot of information. But in others they’ve be thrown away. Supposing they had these certificates you should get some information, but the problem is that they probably won’t be sorted by date ;((
So having a secretary to check them can be expensive.

4) Knowing the Russians made their destroying warfare along the coast during 1710-, It seems very unlikly that all the records still would be preserved. This warfare also made people move without certificates. They just disappear or turn up.

5) In the rippikirja the patronymicon might easier disappear than in the wedding book. In the wedding book you usually find more information of the place the male and female came from like patronymicon, information like status: Bondedotter (farmers daughter) and also the farm they came from.

6) There were also different helprecords kept in some parishes. In some there are “Åldersbok” Age-records. If there is one that also might be of help. I’ve found much help in such records myself. But such help records were not filmed by the LDS. So both the moving certificates, and help records can exists outside the films and Hiski.

Going further? Why not ask the Liminka parish if there is a genealogist that they know of that might be helful. This could be a good way. And if you wrote down everything you have, sending a request to Oulu just saying that this is the information you have and wonder if they can find any additional information like patronymicons, birth parishes... Then they wouldn’t need to do all the work just to check for some details. That would also be one way.

Jaska Sarell
19-12-04, 13:16
It seems that the HisKi versions in English and Swedish do not yet have the "More information about this parish" or "Uppgifter om församlingen" implemented and the equivalent link still gives message: The specified module could not be found.
That works in the Finnish version of HisKi (http://www.genealogia.fi/hiski?fi) under the link "Lisätietoja seurakunnasta". There's a brief history of the parish, a map of the situation and following subjects:
Naapuriseurakunnat = neighboring parishes
Kylät = names of villages
Mustat kirjat = list of microfiches or roll films of available "black books"
Mikrofilmit = micro films
- Rulla = roll number
- Rippikirja = communion book
- Muuttaneet = moved from and to the parish
- Lastenkirja = children's book (AKA ikäkirja, age book)
- Syntyneet = birth records
- Vihityt = marriage records
- Kuulutuksia = marriage banns
- Muuttokirjoja = moving certificates
- other varying documents
Pappisluettelo = list of clergymen
- Kirkkoherrat = vicars
- Kappalaiset = chaplains
- Ylimääräiset papit = assisting and deputy priests

The borders and village info is that of about 1920.

For Kevin's case, Liminka is said to have been mentioned at least in 1477. Earlier it was part of Saloinen. It had chapels Paltamo until 1599, Oulu and Muhos until 1610, Lumijoki (est. 1650) until 1899, Temmes (chapel from 1796) until 1899, Kempele (est. abt. 1688) until 1899 and Tyrnävä (est. 1655) until 1889.
The church was burnt by the Russians in 1582, in Christmas 1589 and yet in 1592.

So Liminka was the mother of Oulu, not the other way.

:) Jaska

kpaavola
19-12-04, 15:19
Wow, between the two of you, I now feel like a scholar! :)

I may try the parish once again, then try Oulu parish. I'd rather exhaust those avenues before resorting to hiring a professional. I kind of like the challenge.

Jaska, I'm familiar with many of the parishes that you mentioned. Those ancestors in and around Liminka had ties in Lumijoki, Temmes and Tyrnävä.

You mentioned Saloinen. One of my ancestors, in the rippikirjat and under the farm he had been located in for years, had his last name scratched out and written in its place was "Salo". My question is would Salo refer to Saloinen? I know he moved from the parish or at least from the farm but there was no Salo farm in the rippikirjat. I thought there was a parish called Salo but don't recall now if it was relatively close or not.

This particular ancestor, moved into Liminka as a widower from Tornava, married in Liminka, lost his wife, remarried then this Salo entry. Seems like a busy man. ;)

Anyway, I was just wondering if Saloinen could be a clue, since you mentioned it in your response.

Thanks again, guys, for the wealth of information.

Jaska Sarell
19-12-04, 17:44
Yes, Kevin. Salo is the old parallel name for Saloinen. It is later named only Saloinen so that it will not be confused with the city of Salo, about 30 miles east of Turku.
The latter is much more familiar to me :D - a fact that doesn't help you a bit.
You may try to figure the parish situations in those maps under Finnish HisKi additional information link. Does your ancestor's surname (or farm name) appear somewhere in the neighborhood, or is it too common for any clue?

BTW. I wonder if Liminka parish staff really meant to refer to the Regional Archives in Oulu.

:) Jaska

kpaavola
19-12-04, 19:19
Thanks for the update. The ancestor I inquired about from Liminka is a different ancestor than the Salo one, but I do recall that the Regional Archives in Oulu was mentioned by the parish when I requested the info.

This gives me a new angle to work. :)

Kaj Granlund
20-12-04, 10:22
Nice Jaska. I had some feeling of that it should be that way between Liminka and Oulu, But securely lost in my brain ;)
If it really is the regional archive it means that Liminka has the older parish records not ”at home” but in the regionalarchive. And then it makes sense that the information was too old. Liminka parish hasn’t got the records to check in their archive. So just skip Liminka and turn to Oulu.
I think Hasse should make this Liminka conversation a new thread! That This Rusanen thread would be kept for the purpose.

The original thread splitted upon request /Hasse

kpaavola
20-12-04, 14:10
Sorry! Should've split it myself. Didn't think it would evolve like it did.

Jaska Sarell
20-12-04, 16:36
Kevin, I looked at your ancestors in Talko. It's Abraham Maijala you are wondering about? The name Maijala appears in some other North Ostrobothnian parishes, but one possibility is neighboring Lumijoki, of course. There's another marriage in Liminka several decades later where the groom is from there. And since all Lumijoki records burned in the fire of the vicarage in 1902, you face certain difficulties :(
Looking at the original birth records of Abraham's children may give an indirect hint of his place of origin, if some of his close relatives happen to appear as witnesses in the christening. I have done a few discoveries that way.

:) Jaska

kpaavola
20-12-04, 17:06
Hi Jaska,
Yes, this Abraham Maijala is the ancestor whose identity and roots have remained hidden from me. He appears in the rippikirjat in 1803 as a dreng but no notation of where he's from. There were no other Maijalas in Liminka at that time so I was curious why he carried his "surname" with him. Usually farmhands didn't do that.

I did, however, search each of the neighboring farms where Abraham first appeared and I found a pigan named Anna Johansdr Maijala who was a few years older. I suspect that might be Abraham's sister and may be the clue as to who Abraham's father was. Maybe something happened to his family and he and his sister moved together. He would've only be 17 at the time he first appeared.

I'm familiar with Lumijoki as one of the grandsons of Abraham married a girl from Temmes who moved to Liminka then to Lumijoki. This girl had an illegitimate daughter in Liminka and moved to Lumijoki when she was a few months old along with her mother. She returned to Liminka years later as a Rautio. I've tried to check if the Rautio husband is really her father or just a stepfather. This child married a Maijala, who was also illegitimate. This has made for a difficult line to trace. This Rautio-Maijala union were my mother's grandparents.

I've had someone check the Lumijoki records that still exist and there is a strong Rautio farm which could be the homeplace of my great-grandmother but not able to confirm 100%.

The Salo ancestor I mentioned was the father of a girl who married Abraham. So these particular branches have been especially difficult. But, that's what makes it all the more interesting! :)

Jaska Sarell
20-12-04, 18:06
When looking at Liminka records from HisKi, it looks like they followed the eastern way of naming. Only very few times the patronymicon is mentioned. Perhaps then the surname was longer lasting part of person's identification, compared to the parishes further south, where the patronymic name was more important and the last name changed whenever the address changed.

Besides the greater Pedersöre area my experience is from SW Finland. There people were mostly named by patronymicon only. Only the farm owners could in some documents be referred by the farm name and torpare by the name of the croft, but not their family nor ever the farm hands. Sometimes they adapted a surname of their own invention, which then was of Swedish type, or they used father's name. He could have had a surname, if he was a soldier or a craftsman. But even these names were not always used by all children, at least not in the church records.

Thus I'll put my stake on that Abraham's father's surname was Maijala. Of course, that region is beyond my experience and any other explanation may be true.

Aren't there any Finnish Finlander members from larger Liminka area? Please come forward behind the Christmas trees you are picking from your neighbor's forest :rolleyes: and enlighten Kevin on this matter!

:) Jaska