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Sandy Witt
20-05-06, 04:42
According to my records, my eighth great grandparents were Hendrik Mickelsson Rågel (b. ca 1642 - d. 1713) and Walborg Mickelsdotter Stubbas (b. aft 1630 - d. 1714) from Sastmola.

Perhaps someone on this list has additional information about this family.

I also understand that there is a family history that is written in Finnish: Rogelin Sukukirja (Rogel Family Book) by Reijo Ostamo. Has this been translated to Swedish (or perhaps English)? My knowledge of Finnish is extremely limited, unfortunately.

Possibly the best-known person in this family was Anna Rogel (1751-1784), a Finnish "sleep preacher" who felt compelled to preach and prophesy while asleep.

I appreciate any information that Finlander List members might have about this family and/or the family history.

Sandy Johnson Witt
Gainesville, Florida

Rogelin Sukukirja (Rogel Family Book) URL: http://personal.fimnet.fi/private/aaltoset/rogel/rogelin_sukukirja.html

christera
20-05-06, 11:32
Hello Siiro -cousine :-)

Here is some www-links to begin with that might be of use (mostly in Finnish):

http://genealogi.aland.net/discus/messages/241/38049.html?1083492353

--> Raimos page include many stories about Sastmola/Merikarvia;
http://kotisivu.mtv3.fi/raimoensio.harju/

--> http://kotisivu.dnainternet.net/pl226/urpo.htm

I have a lot of data relating to Marikarvia/ Ahlainen that I have received from two nice genealogists in Merikarvia (one of the writes the Rogeli book). I'll contact them and inform them about your quary.

-Regards,
Christer

Sandy Witt
20-05-06, 15:46
Thank you so much for these interesting links, Christer,

It is interesting to read about and see photos of this area. I have other ancestors from Sastmola/Merikarvia. Abraham Gustavsson Pundars from Helsingby (1821-1899) and Anna Greta Johan Henriksdotter Högback from Sideby are my second great grandparents.

You say you are a Siiro cousin. My fifth great grandparents were Johan Henrik Bäckman from Närpes (1798-1869) and Catharina "Caisa" Henriksdotter Siiro (1795-1851). They married in 1821 after he moved to Vesijärvi, Storå (Isojoki). Some very kind Siiro cousins have sent me some information about the Siiro family. Unfortunately, it is in Finnish, and (as I wrote earlier) my ability to understand Finnish is extremely limited. Perhaps you know if there is some Siiro information in English or Swedish.

Thank you again for your reply.

Sandy

June Pelo
20-05-06, 18:44
Sandy,

In addition to the people on Talko with data on Siiro, Helen Smith also has some Siiro links. Do you know Helen - she writes on Finngen.

June

Sandy Witt
21-05-06, 01:12
June,

Thanks for directing me to Talko. There are numerous Siiro names listed (many in your database).

I believe that I did correspond with Helen Smith.

Now I realize that I must send in an updated GEDCOM.

Sandy

christera
22-05-06, 21:45
Sandy,

I sent you an private message as well.
However, briefly here is my Siiros:

ANTTI HEIKINPOIKA SIIRO
Talollinen
b: 1727 Isojoki
m: 02.12.1750 Isojoki
d: 28.01.1821 Isojoki Siiro

KREETA ANTINTYTÄR SIIRO
b: 14.01.1772 Isojoki Vesijärvi
d: 24.11.1845 Isojoki

PRIITTA MATINTYTÄR SIIRO
b: 1705 Isojoki
d: 26.11.1797 Isojoki

ANNA MATINTYTÄR SIIRO
b: 1703 Isojoki
d: 16.10.1782 Isojoki

****

SAARA MALAKIAKSENTYTÄR
Torpparin tytär
b: 16.01.1837 Isojoki Siiro
d: 01.02.1901 Isojoki Villamo

[2] PRIITTA MATINTYTÄR SIIRO
b: 1705 Isojoki
d: 26.11.1797 Isojoki

Regards,
Christer

Sandy Witt
22-05-06, 22:52
Christer,

Thank you for sending me your Siiro ancestry.

I am not sure how we are related. I have one Antti Heikinpoika Siiro in my database.

He was the son of my sixth great grandparents Heikki Heikinpoika Siiro (1703-1792) and Liisa Simontytär Saukkokoski (1709-1785). However, I have a different birth year for Antti (1733), so this may be a different person (unless the birth year I have is incorrect, which is possible).

I have sent you a pdf file with some of my Siiro ancestry.

As always, I appreciate being notified of errors, updates, or additions.

Sandy

Kaarina
06-06-06, 10:55
hi Sandy
My Ancestors are to Valbårgh Stubbas 1650-1714 Henrik Rogell 1642-1713 Valborgh have an brother Påffuel Michelsson Stubbas b. 1630-33 d. 20.11.1710 and hes wife Maria d. 18.4.1714
you have any more connection to Rogell
I can see that Liisa Stubbas b. 1655 have not connection through Rogell
Liisa Simontytär Saukkokoski b. 1709 is my ancestors: go to Anna Erichsdotter Saukkokoski b.26.11.1757 husband: Johan Henricsson "Buadin kreivi" Bäck d.10.7.1809 Sastmola/Merikarvia

Pirjo

verpel
07-06-06, 15:16
Hi Sandy

A young student, Mia Häggblom wrote her thesis about Anna Rogel a few years ago. She may have more information about the family since she did a thorough research for her work. It might be of interest for you to know more about what she found out.

Sandy Witt
07-06-06, 18:02
Pirjo,

Valbårgh Stubbas 1650-1714 and Henrik Rogell 1642-1713 were my eighth great grandparents, but I know nothing about their families, and appreciate your providing me with information about her brother and sister-in-law. What do you know about Henrik and Valborgh's parents?

I have managed to obtain some additional information from HisKi, data from a Finnish genealogist who helped a cousin Carlton Appelo research this family in Finland, and a small section of the Rogel Family Book (Rogelin Sukukirja) that a Swedish cousin translated from Finnish to English:

"The earliest ROGEL that we are sure of is HEIKKI MIKONPOIKAA ROGEL (Henrik Mickelsson Rogel) who was born around 1642. He governed the Rogel farm 1668-1700. Heikki and Vapuri Mikontytär Stupila (Valborg Mickelsdotter Stubbas) were married Jan 1, 1672. They had 13 children between 1673 and 1699. Many of their children died of ordinary children’s diseases. There were also many plagues. Smallpox, TB and other plagues killed many people in their houses. Out of 13 only 4 lived on.

Heikki Mikonpoika Rogel (Henrik Mickelsson) died Nov 29, 1713 and his wife Valpuri Mikontytär Stupila April 4, 1714. Heikki and Valpuri had Mikko Heikinpoika (Mickel Henriksson) Sept 3, 1676."

I only have two children for them listed: Mickel Hendriksson Rågel (b. September 3, 1676) and Maria Hendriksdotter Rågel (b. 1685), so you can see that my Rågel family information is very incomplete, unfortunately.

Like you, I have found no Rågel connection for Liisa Stubbas b. 1655, another ancestor of mine.

Liisa Simontytär Saukkokoski b. 1709 was my sixth g-grandmother. I don't have your Anna Erichsdotter Saukkokoski b.26.11.1757 (or her husband: Johan Henricsson "Buadin kreivi" Bäck d.10.7.1809 Sastmola/Merikarvia) in my file.

I had attempted to translate some passages from the Storå/Isojoki communion books (Finnish), but was not as successful as I would have liked to be. It is obvious that I need to work on my Finnish language skills, especially genealogy information.

I can send you a PDF file of my Rågel, Stubbas and/or Saukkokoski lineage, if you would be interested.
I appreciate whatever information you can share with me about the Rågel, Stubbas, Saukkoskiski, and related families.

Sandy

Sandy Witt
07-06-06, 18:07
Hi Verna,

Thank you for notifying me about a student, Mia Häggblom, who wrote her thesis about Anna Rogel a few years ago.

You indicated that she might have more information about the family since she did thorough research for her thesis.

Do you know how I might contact her? If you are in contact with her, you can give her my email address if she is interested in sharing her information.

Sandy

verpel
08-06-06, 12:59
Hi again Sandy,
I spoke to Mia and she said that she hadn't more information about Anna's family. I found this on the web http://personal.fimnet.fi/private/aaltoset/rogel/index.html
It's only in Finnish, though. maybe you've seen it. They will publish a new book later this year.

Kaarina
08-06-06, 14:50
hi Sandy

I have contact to researcher in Finland. She help me with my own researching. I have information about Rogell Family but I must translate this information to English (take time).We are also create new book ( Rogell Family ) and Stubila Family ( The book maybe translate to English ?? ) Finnish book publishing autum 2006.
Liisa Saukkokoski b. 1709 Father:Simo Arvidinp.Tuomikoski B.1666 Storå Spouse: Valpuri Penttilä b. 1674 Son:Simo Siimomp. saukkokoski b.1697 Son: Erich Simonsson Saukkokoski b. 17.7.1777 Storå Spouse: Maria Hendricsdr. Näsi b. 26.12.1733 d. 3.9.1824 Storå Daugther: Anna Erichdr. Saukkokoski b. 26.11.1757 d. 26.1.1828 Spouse: Johan Henricsson "Buadin kreivi" Bäck d. 10.7.1809
Anna and Johans daugther Catharina Bäck and shes Son Eric Erisson Kankku marriage Fredrika Samuelsdr. Rogell b. 1812 Father: Samuel Henricsson Rogell b. 1775 Samuel have an sister Anna Rogell b. 4.12.1751 Merikarvia/Nederby Shes Parents: Michel Michelsson Rogell 1715 and Maria Isaksdr. 1720 Merikarvia/Nederby
Anna have sisters/brothers: Hendrich 1743/ Michel 1748/ Maria 1764
Fredrika Rogell was my 4. g-grandmother
You can contact me about you PDF

Pirjo

Kaarina
08-06-06, 15:25
Hi Sandy

Correction:
Anna Rogell 1751 "Dream Preacher" was AUNT to Samuel Rogell

Pirjo

Sandy Witt
09-06-06, 04:21
Pirjo,

Thank you for this information. I have sent a message to your email account with some further questions specific to these families.

In your database you list Michael Sigfridsson Rogell 1610-1709 Sastmola/Merikarvia. I do not have his name in my genealogical database. How is he related to Henric Michelsson Rogell 1642-1713?

I look forward to your books about these families.

Sandy

Ronny
09-06-06, 10:32
Erich Simonsson Saukkokoski b. 17.7.1777
Is not correct date, that should be he's deat date.
He was born 1728

Ronny
09-06-06, 10:43
Spouse: Maria Hendricsdr. Näsi b. 26.12.1733 d. 3.9.1824 Storå

Eric's Spouse was actually born in Risby, Sastmola
Father: Henrdric Ericson Rijsby
Mother: Maria Ericsdotter

Check HISKI

Kaarina
09-06-06, 11:11
Hi Ronny

Thank you
It be not right in case be hurry
I have this information

Pirjo

salole2
10-06-06, 00:53
Hi!

Just surfing on the Finlander page, I found Sandy's question about the Rågel-Stubbas couple. The names seemed familiar, so I checked and found that they were my husband's 8th great grandparents. He is a descendant of their son Martti Heikinpoika Rågel. He is also a descendant of Valbårgh's brother Pauffel Mikonpoika Stubbas and his wife Maria. They are his 9th great grandparents.
I did not know about this Rogel-book before, but went straight to the library and borrowed it. It gave a lot of new information to us, so thank you Sandy for starting this discussion! We have now given our information for the new Rogel-book.

Sandy, about your latest question...They are father and son. You can find the information in the Rogel-book or from the Family Tree. From the Family Tree you will also find Walbårgh Stubbas parents. Make a search on Valpuri Stupila.


Lena

Sandy Witt
10-06-06, 20:23
Lena and Ronny,

I appreciate your suggestions. I have found some new information on HISKI related to these families and from the family tree (Sukupuu) on the Rogel Book (ROGELIN SUKUKIRJA) website - http://personal.fimnet.fi/private/aaltoset/rogel/rogelin_sukukirja.html .

I have a question about the following paragraph from the Rogel Book - URL: http://personal.fimnet.fi/private/aaltoset/rogel/sukupuu.htm

====
5. Mikko Heikinpoika Rogel 3.9.1676-22.9.1763, vihitty 1./1699.
Vaimo 1. Kirsti Petterintytär Räbbi Köörtilästä 26.1.1673 -20.3.1710. Lapset: Maria s. 4.3.1700, Marketta (Margareetta) s. 29.6.1702 Kasala, Kirsti s. 23.12.1704.
Vaimo 2. Anna Heikintytär Lankoski, s. 24.7.1692, k. 7.4.1756. Lapset: Heikki (Hendrich) s. 6.2.1713, Mikko (Michel) s. 1715 (Rogelin seuraava isäntä), Maria s. 1718 Marttila, Erkki s. 1720 Stenbackan suku, Anna s. 1726, Klemola
====

Specifically, what is the significance of the word "Marttila" in "Maria s. 1718 Marttila" and the words "Stenbackan suku" and "Klemola" in "Erkki s. 1720 Stenbackan suku, Anna s. 1726, Klemola"?

Can you recommend a website that translates basic Finnish genealogical terms to English (or Swedish)? I know this question has been asked numerous times (and I have two bookmarked, but was unable to find some of the terms that are listed on this webpage in them).

Sandy

Kaarina
10-06-06, 22:06
Hi Sandy

Maria b. 1718 go to relations (familier ) trait,bough, of Marttila
Erkki b.1720 to trait of Stenbacka and Anna to Klemola.
They is beginning, started this.
Michel b. 1715 Rogelin seuraava isäntä= Next Master of Rogell.
Mikko b. 1676 marriage 1.5.1699 Kirsti she die child`s bed, child to.
Mikko 2. marriage 7.1.1712 Anna, they receive 9 childrens between 1700-1728.

And thank you for you PDF

Pirjo

Kaarina
10-06-06, 23:20
Hi Sandy

I have just looking you PdF it`s difficult for me to find you link to Rogell families.
I dont have so much information of Sideby peoples and the links from rogel to Bäckman.
I am very interested how we are come to Rogell families.

Pirjo

Sandy Witt
11-06-06, 01:28
Pirjo,

I am still not sure that I understand the meaning of the terms I asked about in my previous email. Finnish is such a difficult language, at least to me.

I have been working on my Rogel line today (mostly from the information and suggestions I have received from the kind people in this forum).

I will send you my Rogel ancestry pdf chart as soon as I check the information I have entered today.

The pdf file I sent you was my Jossfolk ancestry because you mentioned that you had Jossfolk ancestors.

Sandy

verpel
11-06-06, 11:13
Hi again Sandy!
I read your post about the translation of some words, as I understand Maria 1718 belongs to the Marttila family, Erkki 1720 belongs, according to the Rogel genealogy, to the Stenbacka family and Anna 1726 to Klemola family.
It's very difficult to find good translation of the terms used in genealogy but as I speak Swedish (my mother tongue) Finnish and English I might be able to help you with the translation.
I don't have any close relations to the Rogel family but I have a connection to Bäckman's. My greatgrandfather came from Storå (Isojoki).
Greetings:)

Kaarina
11-06-06, 13:09
Hi Sandy

My own grandmother come from Stenbacka G-grandfather Erich Michelsson Rågell,Stenbacka b. 1719 or 1720 Råggi, d.29.7.1803 Stenbacka, ålders ( older ) 83.
I have one Anna ( Annica ) Henricsdotter Långfors, b. 24.7.1692 Siikainen d. 7.4.1756 hemman, 63 old. ( hemman=Home). Parents:
Hendrich Jacobsson Hannula, Långfors b. 1652 Lafjärd Karijoen Hannula d. 15.2.1741 Långfors-Lijsbeth Mattzdotter Sijren, Siiro b. 1655 Vesijärvi Stårå d.1.11.1730 Långfors. Ancestors to me.

Pirjo

Sandy Witt
11-06-06, 23:44
Verna and Pirjo,

Thank you again.

Verna, you indicated that Maria 1718 belongs to the Marttila family, Erkki 1720 belongs to the Stenbacka family and Anna 1726 to the Klemola family. Does this mean that they married people from these areas and/or moved to these areas and their names should be listed with the Marttila, Stenbacka or Klemola name after the Rogell name (e.g., "Maria Mickelsdotter Rogell Marttila")?

I look forward to finding out how we are related through the Bäckman family from Närpes. My third great grandfather Johan Henrik Bäckman (1798-1869) was born in Gottböle. He moved to Storå in 1820, where he married Catharina "Caisa" Henriksdotter Siiro (1795-1851) on February 6, 1821.

Pirju, it is apparent that we have many relatives in common. I am related to Lijsbeth Mattsdotter Sijren, Siiro b. 1655 Vesijärvi Storå d. 1.11.1730 through her brother Hindrich Mattsson Sijren (1650-1710) and his wife Lisa Pålsdotter Stubbas (1655-1738). They are my eighth great grandparents. This brings up another question: You have listed your Siiro ancestor with her Swedish name: Lijsbeth Mattsdotter Sijren. I am never sure how to handle the Swedish-Finnish names of my Finnish relatives. A Siiro cousin advised me several years ago to list my Siiro relatives with their Finnish names because of their Finnish-Finn ancestry. I have thus listed my ancestor Hindrich Mattsson Sijren as "Heikki Matinpoika Siiro" in my genealogy database (with his Swedish name listed as an "AKA" name). In many cases, I am not certain whether people whose names I enter are Swedish Finns or Finnish Finns. I assume there is no easy way to determine this. And this is especially difficult for people from other countries.

Thank you again for your assistance.

Sandy

verpel
12-06-06, 13:06
Hi Sandy,

First about the Bäckman's: Gustaf Adolf b. 1823 is third cousin to my greatgreatgrandfather Johan Johansson Möykky b. 1832 in Storå. So our mutual ancestors go back to Johan Mårtensson b. 1696, if I've got it right.
The Genealogical Society of Finland recommend to use the names as they are written in the church records, in the older records the names are always written in Swedish because the priests were Swedish speaking. Which language they spoke at that time is difficult to know, I suppose those in a higher postition spoke Swedish and the farmers Finnish, depending of where they lived, Anyway, you can do as you like.

I'm not so sure about Maria, Anna and Erkki as I don't have access to the Communion books only to HisKi and I couldn't find out anything more about them. Maybe more can be found in the Rogel-book.

Sandy Witt
13-06-06, 04:14
Verna,

Thank you for your reply about our mutual Bäckman ancestry.

You wrote that your 2nd great grandfather, Johan Johansson Möykky b. 1832 in Storå, was the third cousin of Gustaf Adolf Bäckman b. 1823 - and that our mutual ancestor is Johan Mårtensson b. 1696, Gustaf Adolf Bäckman's 2nd great grandfather.

I have Johan Mårtenson Möykky, b. 1696, in my database, but I do not know which of his children is your ancestor (I have six children listed for him and his wife Anna Eriksdotter Halkola). I appreciate any additional information you might have.

Sandy

verpel
13-06-06, 10:50
Sandy,

I have CD:s of the Storå Communion Books and Johan Mårtenson's children are listed as follows: Erik b. Mar 1729 (or 1730) Lars b. 1732, Valborg b. Mar 8 1734, Johan b. Mar 5, Grels b. Mar 10 1740, Anna b. Dec 22 1743, Mathias b. Sept 23 1745. My ancestor is Erik, his wife is Sofia Eriksdotter Bengtilä b. May 10 1734.
From which of the children are you decending, I don't have any information about family in the US. It would be very interesting to find out more.

Have a nice day!

Sandy Witt
14-06-06, 04:51
Verna,

Thank you for the information from the Storå communion book CDs. What I have about the the lineage to Johan Jakob Gustafsson Bäckman (1846-1933), my fff, is listed below (there may be errors. I don't have access to the original records and appreciate corrections):

Descendants of Walborg Johansdotter Möykky & Matts Henricsson Siiro:

Generation No. 1

1. Walborg Johansdotter Möykky was born March 8, 1733/34 in Storå, and died November 17, 1805 in Storå. She married Matts Henricsson Siiro December 16, 1759 in Storå, son of Heikki Siiro and Liisa Saukkokoski. He was born February 8, 1734/35 at Siiro, Vesijärvi, Storå (bondeson), and died November 25, 1805 in Storå.

Child of Walborg (Möykky) and Matts Siiro is:
+ 2 i. Henrik Mattsson Siiro, born March 6, 1765 in Vesijärvi, Storå, (alternate year of birth: 1767); died November 16, 1836 in Storå.

Generation No. 2

2. Henrik Mattsson Siiro was born March 6, 1765 (1767?) in Vesijärvi, Storå and died November 16, 1836 in Storå; He married Lisa Johansdotter Paholuoma December 18, 1785 in Honkajoki, Paholuoma Farm, Finland. She was born November 25, 1765 in Vesijärvi, and died July 7, 1846 in Storå.

Children of Henrik Siiro and Lisa Paholuoma are:
3 i. Mathias Henriksson Siiro, born October 3, 1788 in Storå.
4 ii. Jakobus Henriksson Siiro, born June 26, 1790 in Storå.
5 iii. Maria Henriksdotter Siiro, born June 4, 1791 in Storå.
6 iv. Anna Lisa Henriksdotter Siiro, born April 22, 1793 in Storå, died April 21, 1848 in Storå.
+ 7 v. Catharina "Caisa" Henriksdotter Siiro, born March 6, 1795 in Storå, died December 29, 1851 in Storå.
8 vi. Walborg Henriksdotter Siiro, born April 29, 1797 in Storå.
9 vii. Margareta Henriksdotter Siiro, born July 28, 1799 in Storå.
10 viii. Henrik Henriksson Siiro, born July 21, 1801 in Storå.
11 ix. Eva Henriksdotter Siiro, born February 4, 1804 in Storå.
12 x. Erik Henriksson Siiro, born May 23, 1807 in Storå.

Generation No. 3

7. Catharina "Caisa" Henriksdotter Siiro was born March 6, 1795 in Storå, and died December 29, 1851 in Storå. She married Johan Henrik Anna-Lisasson Bäckman February 06, 1821 in Vesijärvi, Storå, Lappfjärd, son of Anders Petter Bäckman and Anna Lisa Törndal. He was born February 28, 1798 in Gottböle, Finland, and died May 29, 1869 in Storå.

Children of Catharina Siiro and Johan Henrik Bäckman are:
+ 13 i. Gustaf Adolph Johan Henriksson5 Bäckman, born May 08, 1823 in Storå, Lappfjärd; died Aft. 1902 in Storå.
14 ii. Caisa Lisa Johan Henriksdotter Bäckman, born May 10, 1826 in Storå, Lappfjärd.
15 iii. Maija Greta Johan Henriksdotter Bäckman, born May 22, 1830 in Storå, Lappfjärd; died February 03, 1925 in Vanhakylä, Storå. She married (1) Johan Jeremias Eriksson Färrm December 28, 1851 in Storå, Lappfjärd; born November 13, 1823 in Storå, Lappfjärd; died February 16, 1874 in Storå, Lappfjärd. She married (2) Jakob Häggfors November 12, 1876 in Storå, Lappfjärd.

Generation No. 4

13. Gustaf Adolph Johan Henriksson Bäckman was born May 8, 1823 in Storå, Lappfjärd, and died aft. 1902 in Storå. He married Sara Josephsdotter Widberg (Svartti?) November 14, 1845 in Storå, Lappfjärd, daughter of Joseph Widberg and Katharina Wiitakoski. She was born April 23, 1822 in Svartti i Myllyniemi in Storå, Lappfjärd and died August 19, 1899 in Storå.

Children of Gustaf Bäckman and Sara (Svartti) are:
16 i. Johan Jakob Gustafsson Bäckman, born December 20, 1846 in Storå, died January 5, 1933 in Sideby. He married (1) Wendla Sofia Abrahamsdotter Högback November 10, 1869 in Sideby; born August 20, 1847 in Sideby (Högback); died July 24, 1896 in Sideby. He married (2) Edla Maria Lindman July 23, 1899 in Sideby; born November 09, 1854 in Sideby; died February 10, 1943 in Sideby.
17 ii. Alexander Gustafsson Bäckman, born May 8, 1851 in Storå. He married Alberta Elisabeth Johan Henriksdotter Halkola April 6, 1874 in Siiro, Storå.
18 iii. Aron Gustafsson Bäckman, born July 29, 1855 in Storå.
19 iv. Mauritz Gustafsson Bäckman, born September 22, 1858 in Storå, died January 3, 1862 in Storå.
20 v. Sara Stina Gustafsdotter Bäckman, born September 16, 1860 in Storå, died February 16, 1862 in Storå.
21 vi. Wilhelmina Gustafsdotter Bäckman Törmä, born May 24, 1863 in Siiro, Storå. She married Joonas Joonanpoika Söderholm October 1, 1882 in Storå, born April 24, 1862 in Storå.
22 vii. Frans Oskar Gustafsson Bäckman, born January 1, 1866 in Storå.

I appreciate any additional information you may have about this family.

Also, I have found an error in the website of the Rogel Family Book - http://personal.fimnet.fi/private/aaltoset/rogel/sukupuu.html :

====

MARTTI HEIKINPOIKA ROGEL

. . . Henrik (Heikki) Martinpoika Rogel Rikalainen, s. 7.7.1721, k. 27.1.1809. Rikalaisen isäntä, vih. 28.12.1745, vaimo Saara Heikintytär Lankoski, s. 24.1.1724, k. 20.12.1898.
7. Lapset: Maria s. 1.6.1746, Heikki s. 1749 Rikalainen, Anna s. 11.6.1751 Vanhatalo Riispyy, Katariina s. 1.2.1755 Honkala Köörtilä, Liisa s. 3.10.1766 Uusikankku Alakylä.

====
Saara's birthdate was listed as 1724 and her death date at 1898. Perhaps someone in the Finlander Forum has her death date.

Thanks again to everyone.

Sandy

verpel
14-06-06, 11:26
Sandy,

I have listed Henrik Mattsson's (the birthyear should be 1767) son Johan b. OCt 10 1786 in Storå d. March 29 1863 in Storå. I checked the CB:s again and he he is married Oct 29 1815 in Lappfjärd to Valborg Jöransdotter Kanganpää b. Aug 8 1793 and d. April 24 1867 in Storå. They had eight children:
Albertina b. Sept 22 1817
Maja Lisa b. March 21 1819
Caisa Greta b. April 6 1821, d. May 13 1822
Abel b. March 23 1823 (has family)
Sara b. May 28 1825
Caisa b. March 19 1828 (has family)
Anna Greta b. Aug 12 1831
Johan b. April 17 1835

Have a nice day

Sandy Witt
14-06-06, 15:19
Verna,

Thank you again. I had listed 1767 as Henrik Mattsson Siiro's alternate birth date and am happy that it is confirmed as his actual DOB.

I appreciate the information about his son Johan b. Oct 10 1786 in Storå d. March 29 1863 in Storå. He married Valborg Jöransdotter Kanganpää on Oct 29 1815 in Lappfjärd. She was b. Aug 8 1793 - Was she born in Lappfjärd?

I attempted to order the Storå Communion Book CDs when they became available, but did not receive a response to my email, possibly because I was not able to write my request in Finnish.

I hope you have a good day!

Sandy

Kaarina
17-06-06, 11:00
I find this in HISKI
kuollut ( die )20.12.1798 haudattu ( buried ) 13..1798 Nederby gl:gårds wärd: Sara Henricsdr.

Pirjo

Sandy Witt
18-06-06, 15:14
Thank you, Pirju, for the HISKI burial record that is evidently for Sara Hendrichsdotter Langfårs (Saara Heikintytär Lankoski), who was born on January 24, 1723/24:

Sastmola - Merikarvia - begravda

Död 20.12.1798
Begravd 13..1798
By Nederby
Person Sara Henricsdr
Dödsorsak slag
år m. v. d. 73 11 18

Question: What do the words after Gård "gl: gårds wärd" mean? I am also not sure about the burial date.

Sandy

salole2
19-06-06, 11:15
Hi!

Gl gårds wärd means gamla gårdsvärdinna and my translation of that would be the old hostess of the house.

Lena

Sandy Witt
20-06-06, 03:11
Thank you, Lena,

I would not have been able to figure that out, and appreciate your translation.

I looked up the word "värdinna" in my Swedish dictionary, and it listed the meaning as "hostess, lady of the house."

I am not familiar with the terminology of the mid 1700s, especially with regard to Finnish households. Does this term have any special significance?

Sandy

verpel
20-06-06, 11:17
Hi Sandy!

About the "värdinna". In the early days in the household was usually many generations, gamla värdinna was the oldest woman, wife of gamla husbonden, and then värdinna, the wife( sonhustru) of the oldest son (husbonden), then the other sons wives, daughters in law (svärdotter) and so on.
Hope this wasn't to complicated to understand.

Sandy Witt
21-06-06, 16:04
Thanks again. This explanation helps to clarify the terminology.

I knew that several generations typically lived together in the 1700s, but was not familiar with the various titles.

My dictionary defines "husbonde" as "master." If a man held this title, did it mean that he was the "master" of the gård or just the "head" of his own household? I assume that "husbonde" may be similar to the "husband" and "wife" terms in modern English.

Sandy

verpel
21-06-06, 17:21
Hello again!
The title husbonde means that he was the master of the gård and also head of the whole family (childrens families also) not quite the same as modern "husband".

Sandy Witt
21-06-06, 23:15
Thank you, Verna, for your prompt reply.

I thought that this might be the case from some of the Swedish genealogy that I have read.

Sandy

Kaj Granlund
23-06-06, 18:41
the Värdinna was also regarded as the woman with the keys. She had the keys to the storage houses for food. And then the gamla värdinnan was the one that had transfered her rights to unlock the doors to these storages. And that you can understand sometimes involved conflicts between the old and the new värdinna.

Sandy Witt
25-06-06, 01:23
Thank you, Kaj,

I have learned so much about my Finnish ancestors and relatives and about Swedish-Finn history through the answers to my Rågal and Stubbas families.

Was there an established pattern for the selection of the "new värdinna" (e.g., wife of the first son, first daughter, or some similar selection process)?

I can certainly understand how the turnover of the gamla värdinna's responsibilities could lead to conflict.

Sandy

verpel
28-06-06, 15:51
Hi Sandy!

I have been waiting for somebody to answer your last question about some pattern for the "värdinna" issue. In my opinion, it was when the new "husbonde" took over the farm from his parents his wife became the "värdinna" and his mother or mother in law who remained on the farm was the "gamla värdinna".

Sandy Witt
29-06-06, 15:21
Thank you again, Verna,

This makes sense. I assume that the husbonde held that role until he died or became too old for the responsibilities involved. Was the new husbonde usually the oldest son?

Sandy

verpel
29-06-06, 15:42
Hi again!

That's right! The new husbonde was usually the oldest son or the son in law if he didn't have sons only daughters. If the old husbonde was unable to work he was "på sytning", that means that the new husbonde was obligated to take care of the old ones until they passed away.

Gus the Finn
09-08-06, 20:29
Hello !

I saw this discussion of the Rågel and Stubbas families. I also have them in my ancestry.

Sandy Witt
11-08-06, 13:20
Greetings, Gus,

Thank you for contacting me.

It is nice to hear from you. Perhaps you have additional information about some of the families we have been discussing.

Sandy

Gus the Finn
14-08-06, 17:16
Hello Sandy !

I´ve sent a gedcom to Hasse. I´m new to this forum. Now I see that I can attach a file to this message, so I put in the gedcom on my mother´s ancestry. She passed away in june this year.

Sandy Witt
17-08-06, 02:03
Hi, Gus,

First of all, please accept my condolences for the loss of your mother.

Thank you for sending me the GEDCOM. I have just now had the opportunity to download it, and it is obvious that we have many ancestors in common. I hope to be able to explore it more thoroughly in the next few days.

I sent Hasse an updated GEDCOM this week. I appreciate knowing of any errors that you (or any other Finlander Forum members) might find, of course. As I have written many times, my knowledge of the Finnish language is extremely limited, which makes it difficult for me to research Finnish records - but I am trying to learn the genealogical terms.

Sandy

Gus the Finn
02-09-06, 13:21
Hello again !

I have done something wrong with the gedcom-file I've sent in earlier. Here´s a new one with all births and so on.

Sandy Witt
04-09-06, 19:04
Hi, Gus,

Having the dates is helpful. I noticed that you listed Pekka Olvainpoika Räppi's wife as Marketta. I did not have his wife's name listed in my file. I would like to know where you found this information (perhaps in the Rogel Family Book).

I will send you an outline descendant tree from him to my paternal grandfather Johan Viktor Johansson Bäckman (1881-1960), who changed his name to John Victor Johnson when he immigrated to America in 1905. I wrote about his life in Finland and America a few years ago (I suppose I should update this website with the new information I have): http://sydaby.eget.net/ody/emi/jvjb_bio.htm

There may be numerous errors (that will probably be corrected by the helpful Finlander Forum participants). As I have noted before, my knowledge of the Finnish language is extremely limited, unfortunately.

Sandy

Gus the Finn
04-09-06, 23:25
Hi Sandy !

I have noticed Your post on the forum and downloading Your file. I will check it out more carefully soon. I´ve also been reading Your website. It´s very interesting !

One of my ancestors were in the swedish peace negotiation group with the russians in 1809 by the way.