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Debbie-1
09-08-06, 04:30
Hi my name is Debbie and I am of finnish descent on my grandmother's side. I have become very interested in my
heritage and am tracing back my roots. The two names I
am interested in are Palander which I have been able to trace
back to early 1800 (of course if I have made all the connections right!) However her mother's name from what I have been told
is Anni Elani Tammi (according to my Aunt) I have not found a
shread on her. How can I find later records other then the
Hiski, I can not go past 1902 on that site and she married my
great great grandfather after that. She was born approx. 1899 I am assuming in Finland. She married Yrjo Eemilie Palander and had two children Kerrttu Kilikki and Vilho Palander. Any help would be appreciated.

June Pelo
09-08-06, 17:46
I have a Palander name in my database - from Kangasala: Didrik Wilhelm Palander, b. 1857 in Kangasala. He died 1925 in Jakobstad. No info. about his ancestry.

I also have a Tammi name, but no indication where she was from: Lilly Tammi, b. 1889, married to Onni Mattsson Wirkkala, b. 1891, probably in Kaustby or Vetil.

June

Debbie-1
12-08-06, 01:53
Thanks for info, I will check into what I have, but is there anywhere on the net that I can find marriages between 1915-1925 for finland. :confused:

June Pelo
12-08-06, 17:20
Debbie,

Check your private messages - I sent some info. to you.

June

Debbie-1
12-08-06, 23:53
:rolleyes: Thanks for all the info, I did find the records of when
Anni, Kerrttu and Vilho came to Canada. I also found where Yrgo came over. I just have not been able to find anything else on
Anni. It's interesting to See the name Kalle Palander come up, because in the lines I have connected Frederika Palander married Karl Gustaf Oikarinen and they had a child named Kalle.

Kaj Granlund
23-12-06, 17:12
Marriages after 1915 should be under secrecy and not available on the net.

Debbie-1
11-02-07, 16:32
But why are they secret?

Jaska Sarell
11-02-07, 17:16
There has been tens of unconnected Palander families in Finland. A researcher named Seppo Palander has collected a lot of information of all of them.
His home page is http://koti.welho.com/spalande/
It's in Finnish only, but you may send him email (link after S-posti).

Good luck, and welcome on board FF !

:) Jaska

Kaj Granlund
11-02-07, 20:12
Debbie
Sorry I didn't notice the question. That's according to Finnish law, cause information about living persons is regarded as private information. Only if the person him-/herself gives permission such information can be published. And as people live long nowadays the spam si set to abt 100 years.

Debbie-1
11-02-07, 23:43
Debbie
Sorry I didn't notice the question. That's according to Finnish law, cause information about living persons is regarded as private information. Only if the person him-/herself gives permission such information can be published. And as people live long nowadays the spam si set to abt 100 years.

But what if all parties are no longer living?

Debbie-1
12-02-07, 00:21
There has been tens of unconnected Palander families in Finland. A researcher named Seppo Palander has collected a lot of information of all of them...

Thanks alot Jaska - I have sent him an email.:)

Kaj Granlund
12-02-07, 10:52
Debbie
That 100-year limit is rather fixed.

kkylakos
12-02-07, 21:35
Hi,

There are no records on the internet post 1906, but it does not mean that you cannot get the information. What is critical is knowing where to ask.

If the marriage and/or children's births happened in Finland AND you know which parish, you can send a query letter to that parish and get the information (caveat, all parishes do not answer very fast). There are no privacy limits. Finnish law permits asking for anyone's (also living) in similar fashion for genealogy and the only restriction is in cases where the person him/herself has forbidden giving out the information for genealogy.

Best regards,
Kaisa

Kaj Granlund
13-02-07, 08:18
Yes, that is partly true. You might get the information, but the information is not available online. An that is what I was trying to explain.
But there are indeed restrictions too, when we at a parish office are allowed to give the information. The information is not totally free.
But usually we give it for ordinary genealogy research. But in fact there has been some cases when I found that the person asking was doing the genealogy just to harm some others. And then it is not preferable to give the information. And as there are children outside marriage or divorces involved it is always more tricky too.
Neither is the information about living persons to be published without the acceptance of the person conserned.

Debbie-1
13-02-07, 12:20
Hi Kaj

Do you work with the records? How can I find the parish? All I know is my great grandmother Anni Tammi (unsure of the spelling was born in 1899)
and she married by great grandfather Yrjo Eemeli Palander. For me it is just
to trace my roots and learn about my heritage and to see if I actually
have family other then my mother and 2 aunts.......

Kaj Granlund
13-02-07, 12:49
Yes I work with parish records. But that late dates of birth it is rather tricky. But shouldn't be impossible. One way you could go is this one:

If you know when they emigrated from Finland I suggest you put a thread in the forum giving their names and the birthdates you know asking for information from the passengerlists and migrationinstitute http://www.migrationinstitute.fi/
In the pasport or passengerlists there is usually their home parish (or from the area) mentioned.
I also think that their names likely are Anna or Anni Helena Tammi and the daughter Kerttu Kyllikki. But you are never sure before you see the records :)

After that we could try to find the parish.

Debbie-1
13-02-07, 14:04
There has been tens of unconnected Palander families in Finland. ...

Hi Jaska, Thank you,the link you gave me is very helpful and he has sent me a little info, but can you tell me how I can ask in Finnish if it links up to any of his existing lines.

Debbie-1
13-02-07, 14:06
Yes I work with parish records...

Thanks I will try that, I do know when they landed in Canada and I know which ship they were on, do you think that will be enough?

Jaska Sarell
13-02-07, 18:53
Hi Jaska, Thank you,the link you gave me is very helpful and he has sent me a little info, but can you tell me how I can ask in Finnish if it links up to any of his existing lines.

Hi Debbie,
I believe that you can continue to communicate in English with him.
:) Jaska

Debbie-1
18-02-07, 00:26
:confused: I have been searching for the surname Tammi on the Hiski site
but I have yet to find it. Can someone confirm if Tammi is actually a finnish
surname or has it been changed from it's original form?

Kaj Granlund
18-02-07, 10:29
Tammi is a Finnish name. But if it has been changed from a swedish name it is difficult to know. Tammi is Ek in swedish (=oak). And both Tammi and Ek are used as familynames. But those familynames connected to trees and plants are usually regarded as familynames that aren't old just about 100 years.

Debbie-1
18-02-07, 15:11
Tammi is a Finnish name. But if it has been changed from a swedish name it is difficult to know. Tammi is Ek in swedish (=oak). And both Tammi and Ek are used as familynames. But those familynames connected to trees and plants are usually regarded as familynames that aren't old just about 100 years.

Hi Kaj,

You have been so helpful. I feel like I am running into dead ends. I guess it
just means to be a little more patient. I have found quite a bi on palander
but nothing on Tammi. At the same time I am tracing the english side.
Is there any way I can find out if she was swedish or finnish?

June Pelo
18-02-07, 17:11
Debbie,

In Finngen's Research Directory, this person has data about Tammi. Perhaps you could write him at his e-mail address to see what he knows:

Eddie Bjärrenholt, datakonsult. Sverige.
eddie.bjarrenholt(at)etanet.se
Families: Parikka; Sipiläinen; Tammi.
Parish: Bjärnå; Euraåminne; Muolaa; Uskela.

June

Debbie-1
18-02-07, 19:34
In Finngen's Research Directory,...

Thanks June, I will try that.

Debbie-1
21-02-07, 00:43
Hi Kaj,

You have been so helpful. I feel like I am running into dead ends. I guess it
just means to be a little more patient. I have found quite a bi on palander
but nothing on Tammi. At the same time I am tracing the english side.
Is there any way I can find out if she was swedish or finnish?

Hi Kaj,

I have asked for information but have got nothing back yet. I also
have a few names that I have sent emails to with no luck. Is Tammi
than common a name?

Jaska Sarell
21-02-07, 01:31
You can see the popularity of surnames (since 1960's) at Population Register Center site (go to Name Service): link (http://www.vaestorekisterikeskus.fi/vrk/home.nsf/pages/index_eng)

Name Tammi is a bit problematic, since it's one of those new names that were taken especially in the beginning of 20th century (peak in 1906). So many people having that name today are not related (through some common Tammi ancestor).
GSF site has collected name changes from announcements in official papers, but that's not at all complete, especially if the change or adapting a surname happened earlier. Except in Eastern parts of Finland, people didn't necessarily have surnames, but only patronymic names. Only in 1920's surnames became obligatory.
GSF name change site is available in Finnish only, but if you like to see that it's here (http://www.genealogia.fi/nimet/index2s.htm)
Input new surname to field Uusi sukunimi and click Hae (search).
That may not help, but gives an idea that you need to know more initially.

:) Jaska

June Pelo
23-02-07, 01:27
Debbie,

I asked a genealogist friend about the name Tammi, and she replied:

The Tammi name is mostly around the Pori area of Finland or maybe somewhat south of their according to the surnames of Finland. Sometimes it is Tammela and other derivatives of it.

June

Debbie-1
23-02-07, 18:56
Debbie,

I asked a genealogist friend about the name Tammi, and she replied:

The Tammi name is mostly around the Pori area of Finland or maybe somewhat south of their according to the surnames of Finland. Sometimes it is Tammela and other derivatives of it.

June
Hi June

Is it possible that the name derivative is Tamminen, and that Anni is Aina?

June Pelo
23-02-07, 19:18
Debbie,

Yes, I think just about anything is possible in the world of genealogy. My genealogy friend is checking her database to see if she has any Tammi names.

June

Debbie-1
24-02-07, 01:31
Debbie,

Yes, I think just about anything is possible in the world of genealogy. My genealogy friend is checking her database to see if she has any Tammi names.

June

Thanks June, I did find an Aina Tammimen born in 1899, but I am not sure
Any help is appreciated. Someone else in Finland is contacting the Pori Parish
for me and they say it takes about 2 months. Geez just my luck both names are very common.

syrene
24-02-07, 22:49
Dear Debbie,
I'm not clear from your information if the wedding took place in Finland or the US. I often recommend that Americans find the church where their relatives were members. With luck, the church records where maintained exactly in the style of the records in Finland, that is - each family had a two page journal entry section. There each birth date, baptism, confirmation, marriage and death were recorded. On such a membership page, I discovered my maternal grandmother entered the US in Boston in 1903 and became a member of Seattle's Gethsemane Lutheran Church in 1904. She used two different last names in the US, and I hadn't been able to find her via soundex or actual spelling, on Ellis Island or US NARA microfilms for Boston.This church book was NOT the computerized records used for today's membership, but the books were in the church safe. I needed the pastor's permission to use them, but he was very generous!
Best wishes for success!
Syrene

Debbie-1
24-02-07, 23:23
Dear Debbie,
I'm not clear from your information if the wedding took place in Finland or the US. ...


Sorry they were married in Finland.

syrene
25-02-07, 05:49
Hi again,
So if the children were born, baptized, married or died in the US, their church would have that info. And the US records might show more info on the member parents. What's the chance of figuring out which church in what town might have recorded that?
Syrene

Debbie-1
25-02-07, 15:09
Hi again...

Hi, unfortunately my grandmother was not a religious person, so that could be pretty tough. When she died my mother had a priest who didn't know them at all. Actually it was pretty sad he couldn't even remember the order
of her marriages. So like I said pretty tough. Even my mother has very
little info. By the way I am in Canada.

syrene
26-02-07, 04:23
Sorry, my assumption:(
It's very surprising that persons who didn't go to church often still had a pastor baptize their children!! Here's one of them. My mother couldn't be gotten into a church on her own, but both her children were baptized AND went through confirmation!
So maybe, maybe.
Syrene

Debbie-1
26-02-07, 12:53
Sorry, my assumption:(...

Good point, I will have to ask my mother if she was baptised and maybe someone has my grandmothers baptismal records. I know she
never baptised me. I think she is Anglican, I just wanted to let you know where I was there are probably more Americans then Canadians on here.
No big deal! Which religion should I check if my relatives don't know.
What religions are most common in Finland?

Debbie-1
08-03-07, 01:35
:confused: Hi again,

I think I have finally found a link to my great grandmother with the help of a vrey nice person in Finland who actually contacted the parish for me, but
now I am very confused.......I was told that her name was Anni Aliina Tammi
which this nice person found. He got me her date of birth and marriage, which is great when I went back on the HISKI site I found her(maybe)
I found Anni Aliina born 12 12 1898 but her father's name is
Herman Rosenqvist how did she become Tammi. The reason I think I found her is that my Aunt had given me some siblings names and they are all there.
Can anyone help me?

Kaj Granlund
08-03-07, 07:27
Wonderful! I was already thinking it didn't succeed.

Of couse I cannot be sure but I think this is the reason. The time Anni was born was a time of a developing finnish nationalism. We were an independent part of Russia and the emperor had promised to keep it that way, but the successors didn’t “remember” that. And people here got worried. As a nationalism that would have demanded a reunion with Sweden would have been to dangerous a finnish nationalism developed.
As a part of this there were rather hard feelings between the Swedish speakings of Finland (at that time abt 1 milion people out of abt 3,5 -4 milion (today 300 000 of abt 5,9 milion) and the Finnish speakings.
The more these discussions took place the more of the Swedish speakings changed their identity to Finnish speaking, they stopped talking Swedish, putting their children into Swedish spaking schools, stopped going to the Swedish services a.s.o. And to stress they were Finnish and not Swedish they changed their Swedish familynames into Finnish ones.
Rosenqvist is a Swedish name ( there was even a bishop with that name – maybe a relative?) Tammi a Finnish.
I think that Annis father at some time after the birth of the children simply changed his familyname to Tammi.

Kaj

Jaska Sarell
08-03-07, 10:13
Hi Debbie,

Glad you found them!
The list of name changes at http://www.genealogia.fi/nimet/index2s.htm tells that Herman Rosenqvist from Ulvila changed surname to Tammi in 1907. His name was listed in official paper among many others stating that the name change will be effective from Johan Vilhelm Snellman's anniversary on May 12th. Even bigger number of similar name changes happened in previous year.
Ulvila was mainly Finnish speaking parish, and since Herman Rosenqvist's children had names like Väinö and Eino, they almost certainly were Finnish speakers.
Be prepared to find other names or non-existing surnames behind Rosenqvist and Hydén :cool:

:) Jaska

Debbie-1
08-03-07, 13:33
Wonderful! I was already thinking it didn't succeed...

Hi Kaj,

What do you mean you thought it didn't succeed?

Debbie-1
08-03-07, 13:35
Glad you found them!...

Hi Jaska

Thanks I was really confused, but was it that important to change the name
I am sorry but I don't know alot of Finnish history, it was never discussed in
my family.

Debbie-1
08-03-07, 13:48
Thanks I was really confused...


Hi Jaska (again)

Where did you find that information, I went to look to see if I could find it
and I guess because I don't know where to look, I couldn't locate it.
I tried a few of the catagories but with no luck!

Kaj Granlund
10-03-07, 12:31
Debbie.
I meant that' I was afraid you wasn't lucky to get any information about her. as the place I tried didn't give any results.

Jaska
I think you are right about Ulvila.
But I always find the area around Pori to be a difficult one as comes to these language things 100 150 years ago. Most of the coastline from Pori up north was, as I have understood it, areas with a lot of swedish-speaking people. This can also be seen from the lists that Chuck has made from the Swenson archive churchreords. As people coming from Lyttskär (Lyttylä), Inderö, Ytterö (Yyteri), Räfsö (Reposaari), Vittisbofjärd (Ahlainen) Sastmola (Merikarvia) joined swedish speaking congregations instead of Finnish it indicates they were swedishspeaking. Places like Noormarkku, Söörmarkku also had a rather big swedish speaking popultaion at the end of 1800. My uncle was working in a bus company after the wars, and one day a man came into the bus in Noormarkku. As he heard that my uncle probably was swedishspeaking he asked and it turned out the man was the last in his family that still spoke swedish. The whole family had changed language during 40 years. And what more it gradually turned out they were 3 cousins!
My point is they didn't register the language 100 years ago. And unless there is a familytradition that tells wheater the family spoke swedish or finnish 100-150 years ago it might be rather difficult today to be 100% sure which language the family actually spoke in certain areas of the country. And to me the surroundings of Pori is one of those more "difficult" areas. I would like some response on this.

Kaj Granlund
10-03-07, 13:16
Debbie
Yes it was very important for many to change their Swedish familyname to a Finnish one to indicate they were true Finns. Maybe some of the same fact that most of the emigrants to the USA were determined to show they fitted into the new country and were true Americans. As important it was for many not to change the familyname but to prove you can speak Swedish but still be a good Finnish citizen.
It has a lot to do with the fact that the administration, schools, universities for many hundred years had used Swedish (a heritage from the 700 years Finland was a part of Sweden). During that period many Finnish speaking families had their Swedish names too. Although laws, hymnbooks, services for a long period also had been in Finnish the language didn’t start to develop as a culture language until after 1809. With this development of the Finnish language also the legitimate demand of the rights for the majority of the population grew. Many of the persons speaking for the rights of the majority were Swedish speaking and to stress the importance they changed their names and language. Followed by a lot of others. This splitted families, towns, schools, congregations.
And I find this a sad part of our history as we still live with the consequences. Emotionally there is a scare on both sides. The kind one is formulated:”If you live in Finland you speak Finnish” or “ Go back to Sweden”.Some families cannot accept they have Swedish speaking roots and others that they have finnish-speaking although they speak Swedish today. In some places Swedish speaking youth do not dare to speak Swedish in the night as they might be knocked down cause of the language.
But mainly there are rather few conflicts.

Debbie-1
10-03-07, 15:55
Hi Kaj and Jaska

Your right that is sad, but it is not unlike what is happening here in Quebec Canada for the last 20 - 30 years between the French and English.

It's a shame that I don't know more about Finland, but with the journey I am on about learning my roots I am learning more about my heritage and with nice intelligent people like the ones on this site I am learning a little more all the time.

Debbie-1
14-03-07, 17:56
Hi There,

With your help I did get a little farther, now I am stuck again, I traced back
my g grandmother to a Josef Rosenqvist who lived in Ulvila in 1864 but I can
not find his date of birth on the HISKi site, he wa married to Mariana Lindgren and they lived on Prestgard in Ulvila, can you guys help me again...........
Also what does Statdrengen mean?

Kaj Granlund
14-03-07, 20:02
"Prästgården" means the vicarage. Which can mean that the father of Josef was the vicar of the Ulvila congregation. If so that also probably indicates that their homelanguage was swedish and they were of those intellectuals that stressed their nationality by changing their name and language.
The other possibility is that Josef was some kind of farmhand at the vicarage. There was a stabel worker at the vicarage called Josef Rosenqvist who had a daughter born 1848. And a lot of Rosenqvist farmhands born in the city of Pori. I think this possibility that his father was some of the persons that worked at the vicarage is more likely. And then their homelanguage probably was finnish in this region of the country.

here you can find pictures of the parish church under kirkko http://www.evl.fi/srk/ulvila/

Kaj Granlund
14-03-07, 20:23
"Prästgården" means the vicarage. Which can mean that the father of Josef was the vicar of the Ulvila congregation. If so that also probably indicates that their homelanguage was swedish and they were of those intellectuals that stressed their nationality by changing their name and language. But there is no vicar called Rosenqvist in Ulvila at that time.
The other possibility is that Josef was some kind of farmhand at the vicarage. As there were many Rosenqvists born in the Ulvila-Pori area. These Rosenqvists were mainly farmhands, maids. Their language likley Finnish in this area of the country. There is indeed a Stabel helper at the vicarage called Josef Rosenqvist and he had a daugheter born 1848. But you need the connection. Have you been in contact with teh parish in Ulvila?

here you will find a picture of the church of Ulvila http://www.evl.fi/srk/ulvila/ under kirkko. It is a medevial church with a lot that is reminding of older times.

christina
14-03-07, 20:37
Could it be this Joseph, born in Åbo???? (I searched all the parishes)

Turun suomalainen srk - Åbo finska församling - christened
Born Christened Village Farm Father Mother Child

17.10.1811 18.10.1811 Sjöm: Jos: Rosenqvist Greta And:sd:r Joseph
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I found this too:
Ulvila - Ulvsby - buried
Died Buried Village Farm Person Cause yrs m. w. d.

29.1.1888 4.2.1888 Pappila Itsellinen Josef Rosenqvist tuntem: 69 9 3

Then he has to be born about 1817 ? (Pappila=prästgården)
-----------------------------------------------



You probably have this information already:

Ulvila - Ulvsby - christened
Born Christened Village Farm Father Mother Child

25.1.1848 26.1.1848 Presteg: Stalldr: Josef Rosenqvist Mariana Lindgrén 28 Johanna Josefina

8.1.1851 9.1.1851 Prestg:d Dr: Josef Josefss: Rosenqvist Mariana Lindgren 31 Johan Gustaf

14.7.1852 18.7.1852 Presteg:d Sp: Tp: Josef Rosenqvist Mariana 30 35 Frans Fredrik

5.1.1858 5.1.1858 Prestgård stat-drengen Josef Josefsson Rosenqvist h:u Mariana Lindgrén 35-40 Josef Simon

23.10.1860 28.10.1860 Prestgård Spanmåls drengen Josef Rosenqvist hustru Mariana 40-45 Johan Gustaf

20.2.1864 28.2.1864 Prestgård Statdrengen Josef Rosenqvist hustru Mariana Lindgren 40-45 Herman
__________________________________________
Ulvila - Ulvsby - married
Announc. Married Village Farm Man Wife Village Farm

5.9.1847 Prästgård stalldrg: Josef Rosenqvist hushåll: Mariana Lindgren
--------------------------------------------------------
Ulvila - Ulvsby - buried
Died Buried Village Farm Person Cause yrs m. w. d.

16.6.1901 19.6.1901 Toejoki Itsellisen äiti Mariana Rosenqvist vanhuus 81 14

original - PIK: synt: v: 1820
__________________________________________________ _______________________
This could be Josephs parents:

Turun suomalainen srk - Åbo finska församling - married
Announc. Married Village Farm Man Wife Village Farm

27.4.1802 Ungk: Joseph Rosenquist hushåll: Maria Margaretha Andersd:r
__________________________________________________ _______

Hälsningar
Christina Nordback

Debbie-1
15-03-07, 00:01
"Prästgården" means the vicarage...

HI Kaj

Yes this is the one I found, how do I know if he is the right one and his date of birth.

Debbie-1
15-03-07, 00:03
HI Christina

Yes I found part of it, the names of the children but not the marriage or death.
I seem to have a problem finding the death records on HISKI. I will add that
to my files.

I guess it is possible that he came from ABO. Where is ABO?

christina
15-03-07, 07:35
Hi.
I think you have to look in the Ulvila original churchrecords for Josephs birth, to be sure.
Åbo is Turku in finish. Åbo is about 130 km south from Ulvila in the southwest of Finland.

Christina

Debbie-1
17-03-07, 13:19
Okay how do I do that, which church records? Do I have to write somewhere?

Debbie-1
17-03-07, 13:25
"Prästgården" means the vicarage...
Hi Kaj,

I looked at the link and it looks beautiful, is everything like that in Finland?

Debbie-1
21-03-07, 00:38
Hi Guys

Can anyone tell me what Porissa means after a name?
Example: Hilma Emiliakaskettu Porissa

Hasse
21-03-07, 06:29
Can anyone tell me what Porissa means after a name?
Example: Hilma Emiliakaskettu Porissa

Porissa is the inessive form of Pori, meaning "in Pori" or "in Björneborg"
For a short description see (http://www.uta.fi/%7Ekimberli.makarainen/finnish/inessive.html)

"The inessive is one of the six paikallissijat or location cases. This case is usually used in the same instances when in, at or within would be used in English."

Debbie-1
21-03-07, 17:45
Porissa is the inessive form of Pori...

So I guess that means either they were born or baptized in Pori!

Jaska Sarell
21-03-07, 18:29
Debbie,
Your original example "Hilma Emilia kastettu Porissa" tells that she was baptized in Pori.
There are other noun cases that you may see in records that were kept in Finnish in from late 1800's.
Sampled Pori, Ulvila, Turku, Helsinki
inessive (in) Porissa, Ulvilassa, Turussa, Helsingissä
elative (from) Porista, Ulvilasta, Turusta, Helsingistä
illative (to) Poriin, Ulvilaan, Turkuun, Helsinkiin
In some towns (sampled Tampere, Rauma):
adessive: Tampereella, Raumalla
ablative: Tampereelta, Raumalta
allative: Tampereelle, Raumalle

Another site for Finnish grammar: http://www.cc.jyu.fi/~pamakine/kieli/suomi/
You don't have to learn it :cool: Just to get a feeling, that it's structure is a bit different to most other languages. Very easy though - even children learn it :p

:) Jaska

Debbie-1
23-03-07, 01:49
:rolleyes: Hi All,

Just a few questions, (probably more after this)

1) If christina is right about my ggggg grand father being from Abo, where
do I write to find out this information? I am stuck again!

2) How do I clean up the messages that I don't really need anymore.
I really don't want to have alot of clutter on the site.

I really hope that I am not being to inquistive and that I am asking for
to much from everyone who has already been so helpful.

Jaska Sarell
04-04-07, 21:50
Hi Debbie,

While visiting the National Archives in Helsinki today, I had a few minutes to check your ancestors' birthdays and places from Ulvila records.

1. Anna Aliina Tammi (former Rosenqvist), b. 12.12.1898 Ulvila
2. Herman Rosenqvist (from 1907 Tammi), b. 20.2.1864 Ulvila
3. Hilma Fredrika Hydén, b. 22.12.1866 Ulvila
4. Josef Josefsson Rosenqvist, b. 26.4.1818 Ruovesi
5. Mariana Lindgren, b. 2.8.1820 Kullaa
6. Gustaf Adolf Hydén, b. 2.5.1831 Ulvila
7. Fredrika Johansdotter [no surname], b. 28.9.1831 Kullaa

You can find others in HisKi, but Ruovesi is not yet there. When looking at the "black books", the source of HisKi, I could find no Josef born in 1818 for father named Josef (surname Rosenqvist unlikely used then). Something must have accidentally changed during moves, That is rather common, unfortunately :mad:
While Kullaa is neighboring parish of Ulvila, Ruovesi is much further inland.

You can well continue at your nearest Family History Center, now that you know what parishes are involved.

Happy searching!

:) Jaska

Debbie-1
05-04-07, 00:45
Hi Debbie,

While visiting the National Archives in Helsinki today, I had a few minutes to check your ancestors' birthdays and places from Ulvila records.

1. Anna Aliina Tammi (former Rosenqvist), b. 12.12.1898 Ulvila
2. Herman Rosenqvist (from 1907 Tammi), b. 20.2.1864 Ulvila
3. Hilma Fredrika Hydén, b. 22.12.1866 Ulvila
4. Josef Josefsson Rosenqvist, b. 26.4.1818 Ruovesi
5. Mariana Lindgren, b. 2.8.1820 Kullaa
6. Gustaf Adolf Hydén, b. 2.5.1831 Ulvila
7. Fredrika Johansdotter [no surname], b. 28.9.1831 Kullaa

You can find others in HisKi, but Ruovesi is not yet there. When looking at the "black books", the source of HisKi, I could find no Josef born in 1818 for father named Josef (surname Rosenqvist unlikely used then). Something must have accidentally changed during moves, That is rather common, unfortunately :mad:
While Kullaa is neighboring parish of Ulvila, Ruovesi is much further inland.

You can well continue at your nearest Family History Center, now that you know what parishes are involved.

Happy searching!

:) Jaska

Thanks Jaska, maybe I can find more, with these other bits of information
you've given me. How do I find Family History Centers, are there any in
Canada?

Debbie-1
05-04-07, 01:04
Thanks Jaska, maybe I can find more, with these other bits of information
you've given me. How do I find Family History Centers, are there any in
Canada?

Hi Jaska, me again, what are the black books?

Jaska Sarell
05-04-07, 01:07
I was surprised that there's quite many even in Finland :p
See: http://www.familysearch.org/

The "black books" are rewritten copies of original records of births, deaths and marriages. The nickname is widely used because of the cover color.

:) Jaska

Debbie-1
09-04-07, 18:58
Thanks Jaska, maybe I can find more, with these other bits of information
you've given me. How do I find Family History Centers, are there any in
Canada?

Hi Jaska,

Is it possible that Josef is actually Johan because I found a
Johan Rosenqvist bortn 28/8/1818 in Palkane, village is Laidickala.
Is it possible the dates are off a bit?

Jaska Sarell
09-04-07, 22:37
Hi Debbie,

Your find is not possible since Josef's patronymic was Josefsson, meaning his father was also named Josef. That Pälkäne Johan's father was Mårten Rosenqvist. Otherwise it is possible that the date is off a bit or more, even the birth place may be incorrect due to several movements (see below).

In the meantime I requested a researcher living in Ruovesi about Josef Josefsson. He found out that Josef Josefsson of the same birthdate 26.4.1818 moved out from Ruovesi (permit dated 19.2.1839) to the parish of Harju. He came from Pekkala farm's croft named Majaniemi. His father was possibly a tenant there, or he was a farm hand.
HisKi seems to have his arrival to Harju (moved in) on 9.4.1839. It also has his movement out on 13.11.1840 to Kimito. No surname yet in either cases.
Harju was a short-lived parish, affiliated to Pirkkala, nowadays part of the city of Tampere. Kimito (fi Kemiö) is a mainly Swedish speaking parish in SW Finland, SE of Turku. Movement records of Kimito and Ulvila are available in microfilms, but as they have not been rewritten to "black books", their appearing to HisKi will surely last very much longer than others.

I have encountered a more recent mistake of birth place (my great aunt, b. 1889), where a place of living at one time was later documented as her place of birth. That is possible in Josef's case. The communion book of Ruovesi 1836-1843 (signum A I 13, split to microfilm rolls TK 201, TK 202) and earlier might give an answer. Ruovesi was at that time a strange parish, since parts of it belonged to three provinces (Turku & Pori, Häme and Vaasa). The Pekkala farm belonged to Häme province and the mentioned researcher didn't have microfilms of that part of so early date at home. Otherwise he could have checked out your Josef - we genealogy freaks are a strange community :cool:

I might as well have a look at the Ruovesi communion book now that I know the place to look for, just in case he was born elsewhere. I have no exact plans for my next archive visit, nor can give any absolute promises that I remember to do that...

:) Jaska

Debbie-1
09-04-07, 23:58
Hi Jaska.

Thought I had something, but thank you if you do remember I would really appreciate it. Maybe I can find his father easier, I will keep looking.
In the meantime I am learning a lot about my heritage, which is really
nice. One day I hope to travel to Finland.

Debbie-1
11-04-07, 00:42
Hi Jaska,

I was reading your answer again, and did people back then need permits to move around Finland? And why?

Debbie-1
11-04-07, 00:53
hey guys

what is the shs site and should I put in the information I have found concerning my roots?

Jaska Sarell
11-04-07, 12:14
Debbie,
I guess I used a misleading word for the moving certificate. When somebody was going to move off a parish, the clergyman issued a document giving the name, birth details, marital status, destination and confirmation details. The last was especially important for single persons to be able to be married. The mover then represented this document to the clergy of the target parish, and the information was written to their records. Very convenient for us later genealogy enthusiasts, but you may see the possible drawbacks when handwritten details were copied several times - some details may become distorted one way or another. The person himself did not see the procedure except for the moving certificate, which he maybe couldn't read anyway.
Everybody in those days had to be a member of either of two official churches, the Lutheran (big majority) or Greek Orthodox (mainly in eastern Karelia bordering Russia). The church was then the only record keeper of the population. The census kept by other officers contained information largely for taxation purposes and the details were less accurate. That gradually changed in 20th century, when also census records (annual!) had birth dates (but not places, as far as I know). Also civil register keepers were needed when all people no longer wanted to be a member of any church. From 1960's when all people got a social security number, the population register was centralized. The churches keep records of their own members, details about baptism, confirmation, marriage and burial.
When we nowadays move to live elsewhere, a single report to the population register by mail or through internet is all that is needed. All authorities get the information of changed address this way, even major private parties, like banks and insurance companies.

The times they are a-changin' :D

:) Jaska

Jaska Sarell
11-04-07, 13:19
Oops!
Put some incomplete information :(
I wrote: "Also civil register keepers were needed when all people no longer wanted to be a member of any church"
Much bigger reason in the turn of the century was that people joined other religious groups, which had no official population register keeper's status. Thus I have noted several notes like "moved to civil register" meaning in fact they joined a baptist or some other church.
Resigning from any church is a later "fashion" (from 1960's or so).

:) Jaska

Juha
12-04-07, 14:35
Hi,

I think that I got those name somewhere - most likely they are related to some of my distant cousins :-))


More later


br,

Juha

Debbie-1
12-04-07, 18:58
Hi Juha,

I went to your site but I don't understand Finnish, could you tell me how to find them, I am slowly understanding certain words and maybe this will help.

Juha
12-04-07, 21:22
These people are not listed there. I will check my papers later and inform you.

Juha

Jaska Sarell
24-04-07, 11:46
Hi Debbie,

Already some time ago I looked at Ruovesi communion books for the parents of Josef Josefsson, later known with surname Rosenqvist. Since the researcher in Ruovesi couldn't give any additional information, I report my findings.
He and his father were farm hands in several places. Following backwards in time his yet potential father, the following revealed it:
Ruovesi communion book 1831-35 page 49 (Häme province) Jäminki village
drg Joseph Ericsson 28/11 1797
h. Hedvig Danielsdr 18/8 1793
s. Joseph 26/4 1818

Misinterpretation of dates is possible, Hedvig also written as Hedda.
No other children listed. Place of birth not given :(

Parents' marriage not listed in HisKi for Ruovesi, son's birth not found there. Thus they have apparently arrived from somewhere that is not yet covered in HisKi :(

:) Jaska

Debbie-1
24-04-07, 14:19
Hi Jaska

It's more than what I had, so thank you, maybe I can find more........
You have been a great help.

Debbie-1
28-04-07, 15:15
Hi Jaska

It's more than what I had, so thank you, maybe I can find more........
You have been a great help.


How can I find more information. Does that mean his surname was then Ericsson or Eric.

Jaska Sarell
02-05-07, 20:22
Debbie,
There were no surnames in these cases, only the patronymic name.
Joseph Ericsson was son of Eric.
Hedvig Danielsdotter (dotter often abbreviated dr) was daughter of Daniel.
Eric's and Daniel's patronymic names are not known until researched further back in time. Now you know only their first names,
Son Joseph was also known by patronymic name Joseph Josephsson before he took surname Rosenqvist.
Many of us use a farm name in place of a surname, but as far as the birth place is not yet known it cannot be applied here.

:) Jaska

Debbie-1
03-05-07, 00:09
Debbie,
There were no surnames in these cases, only the patronymic name.
Joseph Ericsson was son of Eric.
Hedvig Danielsdotter (dotter often abbreviated dr) was daughter of Daniel.
Eric's and Daniel's patronymic names are not known until researched further back in time. Now you know only their first names,
Son Joseph was also known by patronymic name Joseph Josephsson before he took surname Rosenqvist.
Many of us use a farm name in place of a surname, but as far as the birth place is not yet known it cannot be applied here.

:) Jaska

So how do I proceed then? Do I look for information in HISKI with just the
parents name Eric and Hedvig, because I thought I found one Joseph born to
an Eric and Hedvig, I will have to look again!

Jaska Sarell
09-05-07, 23:12
Debbie,

I made one more effort today to search back Josef Eriksson and Hedvig Danielsdotter and their son Josef Josefsson.
In communion book for years 1824-1830 I found in page 45 (Ritalax farm):
qv. pig Hedvig Danielsdr 18/9 1793 (<- page 27)
s. Joseph Josephsson 26/4 1818
It appears that Hedvig Danielsdotter had got son Joseph out of wedlock, but additional remark (wording unclear) mentions Joseph Ericsson from page 35, where he is mentioned:
Joseph Ericsson 28/11 1797 (<- p. 166 <- p. 168 <- p. 21)
Since in later book they are mentioned as man and wife, they apparently married later. HisKi doesn't contain those later years for Ruovesi.
Couldn't find mother Hedvig in p. 27, nor father Josef in any earlier page before 21. Going through all pages for communion book 1817-1823 would take quite a long time - over 400 handwritten pages.

None of those births are listed in Ruovesi, no place of birth recorded in Ruovesi communion book, no hits elsewhere in recorded HisKi material. This case is not an easy one :(
Unfortunate to you that your interest areas are not familiar to other Finlander Forum members.

Anyway a genealogist in me will go to a long summer vacation, and will concentrate on closer relatives...

Have a nice summertime!

:) Jaska

Debbie-1
11-05-07, 18:50
Thanks Jaska for everthing....HAve a great summer.

isawilbert
09-08-08, 03:39
I have read some of your threads, and I have some information, that may, or may not, be of interest to you. I read that a Herman Rosenqvist had possibly changed his name to Tammi. My grandfather's name was Frans Rosenqvist, and he had a brother Herman Anselm Rosenqvist, born, December 4, 1889, or 1879, which makes more sense to me. His father was Michael Rosenqvist Born, May 23, 1849 in Noormarkku. My grandfather and one of his brothers changed his name to Salmi when they came to this country, another brother Jaakko Nestor changed his name to his stepfather's name, which was Gronlund. I was told by my father that my grandfather did not want to be mistaken for being Swedish, as their was controversy between the Finns and Swedes in the late 1800s, early 1900s. I believe that my grandfather spoke Swedish in the home until that time that they changed to Finnish. My father told me that my grandfather could speak Swedish, but would never speak it in front of his children. He and my grandmother would only speak it when they did not want the children to understand them. If this information is at all relative to you, I have more information about my grandfather only back as far as his father. If you have any other information, I would appreciate your sharing.

Debbie-1
20-08-08, 16:58
I have read some of your threads, and I have some information, that may, or may not, be of interest to you. I read that a Herman Rosenqvist had possibly changed his name to Tammi. My grandfather's name was Frans Rosenqvist, and he had a brother Herman Anselm Rosenqvist, born, December 4, 1889, or 1879, which makes more sense to me. His father was Michael Rosenqvist Born, May 23, 1849 in Noormarkku. My grandfather and one of his brothers changed his name to Salmi when they came to this country, another brother Jaakko Nestor changed his name to his stepfather's name, which was Gronlund. I was told by my father that my grandfather did not want to be mistaken for being Swedish, as their was controversy between the Finns and Swedes in the late 1800s, early 1900s. I believe that my grandfather spoke Swedish in the home until that time that they changed to Finnish. My father told me that my grandfather could speak Swedish, but would never speak it in front of his children. He and my grandmother would only speak it when they did not want the children to understand them. If this information is at all relative to you, I have more information about my grandfather only back as far as his father. If you have any other information, I would appreciate your sharing.
Hi I would be happy to share what I have with you.........in fact I believe that is where I got stalled but I have a lot of the information up until 1899 which goes to my great great grandfather. if you can send me ur email and I will see if I can forward what i have on.......I have also started the family tree and had it on the web will check to see if it is still there.