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sune
24-03-07, 11:02
Every now an then we have had discussions about dialect and some have wondered what the Ostrobothnian "languages" are like. Here comes a sample from Högnäs' Byrallor på räin Nädervertil-svensk by Uno Högnäs:

"Allting jär i världen vaal minder å minder. Bå kara å kvinnfolttji ha vaali stäcker än förr i världen. Förr ha jo å kvinnfoltji länger håårä än kara, men nö för tiidä siir an int na stjillna. Skriftskolbååna siir jo å så nödväxin ut, jyså gräna på Saukkolamp-måsa. Ja, allting krympar ihop jyså järpä mot doomä. Förr i världen tå de djift sä, så räckt djäsbo i tri da minst. Nör för tiidä räcker ä int än da hellder, å på ti all stäckåast å finast djäsbona lär ä finns så liite ti ita så an int behöver tööm maga siin på äin vickå bakät. (Enligt Torpgubbä.)"

It is obvious that dialect doesn't work well when it's written. Dialect is first and foremost a spoken language.

Sune

June Pelo
24-03-07, 16:28
Sune,

Have you heard of Hansas Kalle and his book of stories, written in the Nedervetil dialect. He was Karl Johansson Hansén, (1874-1966), and was a distant relative of mine. I had a copy of his book but couldn't make sense of it, so I donated it to the Swedish Finn Historical Society. Here's an article written about the search for the original edition of his book, prior to a reprinting.

June

sune
24-03-07, 18:29
Hi June:

No, I didn't know of Hansas Kalle, but it sounds interesting. Reading dialect is however not easy. I am not at all surprised that you could make any sense of it.

Sune

Eero
17-04-07, 23:03
Every now an then we have had discussions about dialect and some have wondered what the Ostrobothnian "languages" are like. Here comes a sample from Högnäs' Byrallor på räin Nädervertil-svensk by Uno Högnäs:

"Allting jär i världen vaal minder å minder. Bå kara å kvinnfolttji ha vaali stäcker än förr i världen. Förr ha jo å kvinnfoltji länger håårä än kara, men nö för tiidä siir an int na stjillna. Skriftskolbååna siir jo å så nödväxin ut, jyså gräna på Saukkolamp-måsa. Ja, allting krympar ihop jyså järpä mot doomä. Förr i världen tå de djift sä, så räckt djäsbo i tri da minst. Nör för tiidä räcker ä int än da hellder, å på ti all stäckåast å finast djäsbona lär ä finns så liite ti ita så an int behöver tööm maga siin på äin vickå bakät. (Enligt Torpgubbä.)"

It is obvious that dialect doesn't work well when it's written. Dialect is first and foremost a spoken language.

Sune
Is this the same dialect Bo Oscarsson says sounds like the Jämtland dialect?

http://web.telia.com/~u63501054/Austerbottn.html

Norwegian linguist Arnold Dalen says the Jämtland dialect and the Trondelag dialect in Norway are closely related:

http://www.sprakrad.no/templates/Page.aspx?id=7973

I guess that's where the dialect came to Ostrobothnia from.

sune
18-04-07, 09:54
The dialects are rudiments of old Nordic, that first separated into different dialects and then becoming different languages: Danish, Norwegian, Swedish, and Icelandish. And these developed further into dialects keeping some of the characteristics of the old language. You can for example find words that have fallen out of the official book languages still living in the dialects.

One example is the word for magpie. In Swedish it is skata, in Ostrobothnian shooro and in Gotlandic shoor. I've been told that the same word is in use in some Norwegian dialects too.

A jetty is brygga in Swedish. In Ostrobothnian it is bryddjo, and likewise in the Hardanger area in Norway.

A church is kyrka in Swedish (where the first k is pronounced as the ch in church). In Pargas in the south west of Finland the k is pronounced like a k and as Norwegian kirke.

You find all kinds of similarities between the Nordic dialects. The official book languages are somewhat artificial. The Swedish Academy started to standardize Swedish in the 18th century and it is still going on. The objective of course is to create a norm for grammar and orthography. Earlier every writer wrote Swedish by guesswork.

But the dialects have developed more freely. And many old words and sayings have remained. Therefore you can trace the language nearer to it's origin. And the common base is still visible.

My father who did business in northern Germany said that he could speak his Pedersöre dialect with older people there. They were the descendants of
Swedes that came to the area during and after the 30 year's war. Still in the 1960ies some spoke an old 17th century Swedish that had many similarities with today's Pedersöre dialect.

Sune

Eero
18-04-07, 12:23
According to this Indo-European Language Tree, Swedish and Danish developed directly from North Germanic, while Norwegian, Icelandic and Faroese developed through Old-Norse. I guess there are big differences between the dialects of Southern Sweden and Central Sweden?

http://www.danshort.com/ie/iecentum_c.shtml

Eero
18-04-07, 13:02
One thing I've been recently wondering is why the place names Maalahti and Petolahti in Ostrobothnia are in Swedish Malax and Petalax.

In Scotland, the word "loch" means bay or fjord in addition to lake:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loch

The Finnish word "lahti" also means bay. I wonder if the words "lahti", "lax" and "loch" are somehow linked.

As you can see, there's a straight sea route from Trondheim through Shetland and Orkney Islands to Scotland:

http://www.danshort.com/ie/mapmaker.php?Map=sgael

From Trondheim comes a river and lake route through Jämtland to the Gulf Of Bothnia.

The reason why I started to wonder about this was that according to DNA Tribes (http://www.dnatribes.com/) my closest genetic relatives in addition to Finns seem to be Icelandic, Scottish and Norwegians, as seen in the map below.

sune
18-04-07, 21:30
Well, it's not very far from Mid-Norway to Ostrobothnia. Some of the original Ostrobothians migrated from Norway through Västerbotten in Sweden to Ostrobothnia. And the traffic over the Bothian Gulf has alway been lively. During the Swedish era Västerbotten and Ostrobothina formed one administrative district with the governor's seat in Korsholm near Vasa.
And the Västerbotten dialects have similarities with the Ostrobothnian, not least in intonation.

Sune

Eero
18-04-07, 22:26
Scotland has a lake called Loch Watten that suggests a link with Scandinavia. Loch Watten is said to be famous for its trout that is related to salmon, which in Swedish is "lax" or in Finnish is "lohi". "Lohi" sounds much like "loch":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loch_Watten


Loch Watten is a loch in Caithness, Scotland in the River Wick drainage basin. The name is a tautology, consisting of the word "loch" (of Gaelic origin) and vatn, a Norse word meaning the very same, found in such names as "Þingvallavatn" and Myvatn in Iceland, and "Røssvatnet" and "Møsvatn" in Norway.

It is well known as a good fly fishing loch for brown trout.

This further makes me wonder about Loki in the Norse mythology and Louhi in the Finnish mythology:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loki


Loki is the mythical being of mischief in Norse mythology, a son of the giants Fárbauti and Laufey, and foster-brother of Odin. He is described as the "contriver of all fraud"

http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pohjolan_em%C3%A4nt%C3%A4


Pohjolan emäntä eli Pohjan akka on kalevalaisessa tarustossa myyttisen Pohjolan maan matriarkka eli naisjohtaja. Kalevalassa Pohjolan emännän nimi on Louhi, mutta kansanrunoissa tunnetaan muitakin nimiä, muun muassa Lovetar, Loviatar, Louheatar ja Lovehetar. Pohjolan emännästä kerrotaan myös mainitsematta hänen nimeään.

sune
19-04-07, 13:15
I am not an etymologist, so what I say is pure guesswork, intelligent:D but nevertheless guesswork.

The connection between Gaelic loch and English Lake seems obvious. But I think it's too far fetched to build a connection loch-lake-lax-lahti. The Swedish Finnish parish names ending -lax probably comes from Finnish lahti, meaning bay.

I do not know the etymology of lohi, but I doubt that it has much to do with the mean Kalevalian Lady of the North, Louhi. She was a really mean person with all the attributes of a witch or a evil sorceress. Louhi is, by the way, the Finnish name for the sailing yacht class Dragon, which illustrates what Finns associate with the name.

Sune