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Denise
01-07-07, 18:41
Hi,
Is there a website with missing/drowned/deaths etc. of Finnish Merchant Marines? I am searching for information on two brothers, Antti Viktorinpoikä Palmgren, born abt. 1888 and Nikolai Wilhelm Viktorinpoikä Palmgren, born 2 May 1890, from Karijoki. (Parents were Viktor Jaakonpoikä Palmgren, b. 22 Mar. 1859, Karijoki and Aurora Wilhelmina Briitantytär, b. 5 April 1859, Kauhajoki)

Either Antti or Nikolai joined the Merchant Marines, and disappeared; according to the family story, by drowning in the Baltic Sea. The other brother, at about 8 years of age, made the comment as he passed a cemetery that he would be buried there in 2 weeks, and was. It is unknown what he died of.

I have been unable to come up with any information on these brothers. I do have info. on the rest of the family that immigrated to Crystal Falls, Michigan, but information from Finland on these brothers would be greatly appreciated.

Thank-you in advance for your time.
Best Regards,
Denise

June Pelo
02-07-07, 02:44
Denise,
This deals with Merchant Marines but think it pertains to the US, even though it indicates 12 from Finland: http://www.usmm.net/home.html

June

Karen Norwillo
02-07-07, 03:07
Denise,
This is unrelated, but I'll be in Crstal Falls in a few weeks. Is there anything you want me to look for while I'm there? I'll be visting Evergreen Memorial to my grandparents and brother's grave. Do you need anything? Drop me a PM. Karen

Denise
02-07-07, 06:30
Hi June,
Thank-you for the link, and it did have one Palmgren listed, but not one of the brothers I am trying to find more about. I'm unsure if "Merchant Marines" would be the proper name of what either Antti or Nikolai joined in Finland. That is what my mom was told, but she is unsure which brother it was. The story was that he disappeared, no one ever heard from him again, and it was assumed that he drown while aboard ship in the Baltic Sea. I also understand he was at a young age, such as 18 yrs. of age, so WW2 would be much later than when his death occured. I'm thinking both brothers died between 1906-1910. The brothers didn't immigrate in the autumn of 1910 with my great-grandmother, Aurora, so I assume they were already deceased.

Again, thank-you June. I appreciate it.

Sincerely,
Denise

A Helena
05-07-07, 18:16
Hei,

Google: genealogia merimiehet > Merimeshaku: Palmgren (=Seamen´s search) Fill up only the family name!

Palmgren N. W.: Ajankohta: 1908; Sisäänkirjoitettu/Inskriven: ei; Syntynyt: 1890 Karijoki; Kotipaikka/Domicile: Lappfjärd/Lapväärtti; Lähde/Source: Porin merimieshuone/Björneborg´s seamen´s room Aa4:36.

Palmgren W.: Ajankohta: 1909; Sisäänkirjoitettu/Inskriven: ei; Syntynyt: 1890 Karijoki; Kotipaikka/Domicile: Lappfjärd/Lapväärtti; Lähde/Source: Porin merimieshuone/Björneborg´s seamen´s room: Aa5:35.

Muita merimiesluetteloita (=other seamen´s listings) > Ulkomailla kuolleita merimiehiä 1882 - 1942 (= Seamen died abroad) No indication of Palmgren!



Hyvää kesää/Trevlig sommar, :)

Denise
09-07-07, 18:25
Hi A. Helena!
Sorry, but I was on a short vacation in the U.P. of Michigan. I did see your post, but my mom still has dial-up internet at her house there, too slow, and I thought I would wait until I returned before answering you. The dates, 1908 and 1909, do they refer to when they were enlisted, or would they be death dates? Thank-you so much for the information; I appreciate it.


Best Regards,
Denise

Denise
25-07-07, 20:36
Hi Everyone,
With the help of A. Helena, and a quick search, I have found that Nikolai Vilhelm Vihtorinpoikä Palmgren, my ggreat-uncle did not die by drowning in the Baltic Sea while with the Merchant Marines as the old family story goes. He died during the Finnish Civil War in 1918. Here is the record I found last night and tried to translate. If I am wrong in my translations please correct me as I want to get this very important record to our family history correct. When finding it I was saddened by the thought that all these years our family thought he drown, as he just disappeared, and my ggreat-grandparents were told that story. When in actuality, he was a POW and imprisoned for about 4 months, outside of Helsinki, in a prison in Katka. The translation I have for words in Finnish are:
kuollut saiautee vankileirilla= died of sickness in prison?
(Burial) Ei Tietoa= no information
(Party to which person belonged) punainen= red
(Occupation) Peltiseppä= tinsmith

You see, I have a passenger record, which I will attach, that has my ggreat-grandmother A. Wilhelmiina Palmgren, and, who I believe to be another son, Antti (Andrew), returning from Helsinki, Finland in 1920. It is my belief that she was there in search of her missing son, and got no answers, other than the drowning story.
I would appreciate any information on the history of this war, why it was fought, why there were Finns on the red side and white side, were the Russians involved? Why he was imprisoned? I guess I'm just trying to understand his death at 28 years old. I don't know if he was married, or had children. Back home, in America, at the same time Nikolai went missing, my great- grandmother, Toini, Nikolai's sister, had her husband die, and gave birth to a child 2 weeks after her husband's death. And to have her brother missing on top of it all! I'm truly amazed at the SISU of her, and of the Finnish people to go on in the face of such tragedy's. We Finns are an amazing race, don't you agree?
Thank-you in advance for any history lessons you may offer me, as I don't quite get what that conflict was all about. I would appreciate any input or thoughts on this subject.

Sincerely,
Denise

http://vesta.narc.fi/cgi-bin/db2www/sotasurmaetusivu/main

Personal information
Surname Palmgren (PT) (RK) (VL)
First name Nikolai Vilhelm Vihtorinpoika (RK)
Sex Mies (PT)
Age 28
Civil status Naimaton (PT)
Number of children
Nationalitet
Place of birth Pori (RK)
Country of birth
Year of birth 1890 (PT) (RK) (SRK)
Date of birth 2.5. (PT) (RK) (SRK)
Place of census-registration Lahti (PT) (RK) (SRK) (VL)
Province of census-registration Hämeen lääni (PT) (RK) (SRK) (VL)
Country of census-registration
Place of living
Province of residence
Country of residence
The family's means of subsistence Ei tietoa
Profession Peltiseppä (PT) (RK) (SRK) (VL)
Language group
Confession
Remarks
Military organization
Way of recruitment Ei Tietoa
Party, to wich the person belonged at the time of death Punainen (PT) (RK)
Military position
Military rank Ei tietoa
Position Ei tietoa
Armed Ei tietoa (PT)
Positional remarks
Place of imprisonment Kotka (VL)


Length of imprisonment 4.5.1918 (VL)

Year of death 1918 (PT) (RK) (SRK) (VL)
Date of death 2.9. (PT) (RK) (SRK) (VL)
Place of death Helsinki (RK) (SRK) (VL)
Province of death Uudenmaan lääni (RK) (SRK) (VL)
Country of death
Scene of death Suomenlinnan vankileiri (RK) (SRK) (VL)
Cause of death Kuollut sairauteen vankileirillä
Motive of killing
Burial Ei Tietoa
Remarks on burial
Uncertain case of war victim




Extra Info
Cause of death Tavallinen keltata§uti todennäköinen K










Last name Palmgren
Passport records

First names Wilhelmina
Age or age group 57
Port of departure Hanko
Place of destination Boston
State of destination MA
Country of destination USA
Price of ticket FIM 2700
Ship from Finland Arcturus
Date of departure from Finland 10.11.1920
Ship from England Caronia
Date of departure from England 30.11.1920
Ocean Line Cunard Line
Port of departure in England Lontoo
List and page 101/85
Remarks Mk Andrew Palmgren. Helsinki! Lähtöaika!

Denise
25-07-07, 22:03
Hi,
Also, what does Lähtoaika mean on my gg-grandmother's passenger record, under remarks?

Thank-you,
Denise

Denise
26-07-07, 05:09
Hi,
The passenger record for Andrew Palmgren CANNOT be my gggrandmother's son. He is 56 years old. She is 57 years of age, as she was born in 1859, and this passenger record is from 1920, so that would be correct. On Ancestry I was able to find the N.Y. Passenger Record of this Andrew and Wilhelmiina Palmgren's arrival from Helsinki in 1920, and both state their mother is Maria Palmgren Jarvenpaa. Therefore, I have to come to the conclusion at this point that it isn't my gggrandmother, Wilhelmiina Palmgren on the passenger record in 1920. (There is also a passenger record of A. Wilhelmiina from 1910 on Institute of Migration, travelling with daughter, Toini, and that IS her original passenger record when coming to America). So, it is apparent that she did not go in search of her missing son like I originally thought and I jumped to conclusions that she did. I'm posting the passenger record of Andrew Palmgren, but it is not her son. Also, Wilhelmiina's mother was not named Maria, but Briita.

Sincerely,
Denise




Last name Palmgren
Passport records


First names Andrew
Age or age group 56
Port of departure Hanko
Place of destination Boston
State of destination MA
Country of destination USA
Price of ticket FIM 2700
Ship from Finland Arcturus
Date of departure from Finland 10.11.1920
Ship from England Caronia
Date of departure from England 30.11.1920
Ocean Line Cunard Line
Port of departure in England Lontoo
List and page 101/85
Remarks Mk Wilhelmina Palmgren. Helsinki! Lähtöaika!

verpel
26-07-07, 13:04
Hi Denise,

Lähtöaika, means Date of departure.

Regards

Denise
26-07-07, 13:35
Hi Verna,
Thank-you for the translation. My Finnish to English dictionary doesn't always have the word I'm searching for. I appreciate your help.

Sincerely,
Denise

Denise
26-07-07, 13:59
Hi,
After reading about the Finnish Civil War, I understand a bit more about what it was all about. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_Civil_War I'm surprised at Nikolai's choice at which side he chose. The rest of his family was in America, or deceased. I now wonder what my gggrandfather was like. He came to America in 1896, leaving his wife in Finland to care for all of their children. For fourteen years she was on her own, and finally in 1910, she immigrated with her youngest daughter, Toini, who was fifteen by then. This war must have broke up many families. All the lives lost; very sad.

Denise