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June Pelo
25-11-07, 01:22
I have a request for help from someone concerning her grandfather. Her
information isn't very complete - but it's all she knows:

Pekka Jantunen (Juntunen), b. ca 1837, and Ana Maria Seppänen had 4
children:
Anio; Armas; Rauha, b. ca 1915; and Fannie. They lived on an island
known as Pesari ?. Pekka was an old man when he fathered these children.

I realize this isn't much information but they would like to learn more about Pekka. Would appreciate any information. Someone said these names can be found in Suomussalmi.

June

Karen Norwillo
25-11-07, 17:56
June,
I found both names in Suomussalmi, but the dates are way off. I found births for 6 children born between 1813 and 1825 to a Pehr Juntunen and Anna Seppänen of Kainto/Kaindo village. Also a marriage for these two on 15 Mar 1813 for Pehr Juntunen and Anna Jobsdtr. Seppänen. They had a son Pehr born 7 Sep 1822. There are 9 Pehr/Pekka Juntunen born in Suomussalmi between 1848-1859, no Jantunen. I also found a 5 Jul 1856 birth for an Anna Maria in Kaindo village to Eric Seppänen and Elsa Juntunen. There is no reference to a place called Pesari in this parish.
Karen

Karen Norwillo
25-11-07, 19:11
On the Finnish Arkives FFHA, there is in the Communion records for 1834-1842 Suomussalmi parish an Olof Jundunen and his wife Gretha Seppänen with a son Pehr born 29 Jan 1836. This is in Kiando, note difference in spelling. I misspelled it previously. In the marriage records, I found the marriage for Olof Jundunen and Greta Seppänen 18 Jan 1835. There seem to be many intermarriages between these two surnames. This 1836 birth is the closest I found. Karen

Karen Norwillo
25-11-07, 19:31
There is a place called Lipari, near Kuopio, in N.Karelia region that has a lake. There was a Petter Jundunen born 21 Jan 1836. Thought the Lipari sounded abit like Pesari.

June Pelo
25-11-07, 22:22
Karen,

Thanks for all those interesting findings. Also received some from several other people. I'm trying to pin this woman down as to dates - I think maybe she was guessing and not sure of the dates. Some of what you found sounds promising and when I hear from her, I'll have a better idea if these are "her" people.
June

Jaska Sarell
26-11-07, 02:17
I suppose Suomussalmi is a good candidate, as well as its neighbors.
Surname Juntunen is common in Kainuu (Sw. Kajanaland) province (HisKi #18). Seppänen has also been common there, though appears elsewhere as it's derived from word seppä, meaning smith.
On the other hand surname Jantunen has its origin in Karelian Isthmus.

Perhaps the island name "Pesari" should be something ending with saari, meaning island. One possibility is that it's simply pääsaari, meaning main island - not necessarily a name in the map.

:) Jaska

June Pelo
26-11-07, 22:32
Jaska,

Your suggestion of Pääsaari sounds logical. She guessed at the spelling and remembers her mother telling her that her mother's mother and the children lived on an island called Pesari and they had to leave the island. She asked if the island was part of Finland or if it was a private island? She also thinks that Pekka Juntunen was born ca 1848 because he was 78-79 when her mother Fannie was born in 1923. And her mother's sister Rauha was born in 1915. Rauha and Fannie came to NY in 1955 and 1957 - the boys Anio and Armas stayed in Finland. She's pretty sure that her grandfather was married earlier and had another family, but she hasn't been able to find out anything about the marriage or the children. HisKi doesn't include the birth years for Rauha and Fannie. She's picking the brains of her cousins to see if they can remember anything of importance.

June

June Pelo
27-11-07, 21:21
Well, the search has taken a new turn. Tarja called her 92-year-old aunt Rauha who said her father's name was Pekka Jantunen (not Juntunen), and he was a traveling shoe salesman. He had children from a first marriage, but Rauha didn't know the wife's name nor those of the children. Rauha said she was born 1915 in Karimayla (sounds like), and her sister Fannie was born in 1923 - their father Pekka was 79 when Fannie was born, which would put his birthdate near 1844. Rauha also said the island was Pealeasaari (sounds like). I couldn't find any names similar to these. And not much about Jantunen names on HisKi. Tarja also said that Pekka and Ana Maria Seppänen were not married - so that's why we didn't find a marriage record. Rauha thinks Pekka died 1926-27 and is buried in Detroit.

June

Jaska Sarell
28-11-07, 00:02
Hi June,

Another sounds-like guess from me :cool:

"Karimayla" could be Kerimäellä, i.e. in Kerimäki.
There are plenty of Jantunen names in HisKi there, including some Petter/Pekka.

"Pealeasaari" doesn't give any ideas, at least not yet.

:) Jaska

June Pelo
28-11-07, 02:21
Jaska, Tarja is sending a detailed map of Finland to Rauha and will ask her to highlight the place where she was born. And she asked her to show where the island was. This is what Tarja just wrote: "mother always spoke of Jounsu and karremeiki,and kourla." So your Kerimäki was a good guess! - and I recognize Joensuu. The other I don't know. Hopefully when the map is returned, we'll have a better idea of the location. I'll check HisKi for Kerimäki next. Thanks for the input.
June

June Pelo
04-12-07, 02:38
I have a little more information now. Rauha Seppänen was born 2 Apr 1915 and her sister Fannie Seppänen, b. 13 Jan 1923, both in Kerimäki - but HisKi doesn't include those years. The island where they lived was Pihlajasaari. I couldn't find that name, but did see Pihlajavesi. Are they the same place?

She asked if I could find anything about her father's brother Nils Helmer Kilpinen, b. 26 Jan 1919 in Borgo? I couldn't find Borgo anywhere. Is that a correct place? His mother was Ida Maria Kilpinen, b. 2 Apr 1884. The only Ida Maria I could find was born 29 Dec 1884 in Jokela village, Tuusula to Erik Johan Kilpinen and Maria Wilhelmina Lindberg. The birthdates of the two Ida Maria Kilpinens differ so I don't know if they are two different people..

I found an Ida Maria, age 35, married to Felix Leander Lehtonen and they had 3 children b. in Tuusula: Emil, b. 1899; Kerttu, b. 1901 and Felix Niilo Helmer, b. 11 Nov 1902. The Nils Helmer she's looking for was born 1919, so there's a 17 year difference there, and his last name should be Kilpinen and not Lehtonen. Guess I'm not making much headway with this search. :(

June

Denise
04-12-07, 05:38
Hi June,
I googled and found this link about Borga (Swedish) which is about 30 miles from Helsinki. Also known as Porvoo.

Denise :D

http://www.sadcom.com/art/porvoo.htm

Jaska Sarell
04-12-07, 08:27
Pihlajasaari ("Rowan Island") is rather common island name around Finland.
Pihlajavesi ("Rowan Water") is a large lake south of Savonlinna.
In Kerimäki there's a village called Pihlajaniemi ("Rowan Cape") about 20 km (12 miles) NE of Kerimäki church.

For any newer information one should contact the parish office, in this case:
Kerimäen seurakunta
Urheilukuja 2
FI-58200 KERIMÄKI
Finland
email: kerimaen.seurakunta*evl.fi

Borgo probably means Borgå (fi Porvoo) as Denise supposed.

:) Jaska

P.S. Kerimäki Church is quite famous, as it's the largest wooden church in the world. Google for more about it.

June Pelo
04-12-07, 18:06
Thanks Denise and Jaska. This is the latest: Ida Maria Kilpinen, born 4 Feb 1882, died 31 Dec 1976, in a nursing home in Helsinki, worked as a domestic ca 1910-23 in the home of Jean Sibelius. Probably did not marry. Had a son named Hilding Kilpinen, and a son Nils Helmer Kilpinen, b. 26 Jan 1919 in the Borgå diocese. The two sons did not have the same father. Ida Maria told Hilding that his father was Sibelius' butler, named McCleen.

Questions: Would church records indicate the name of Hilding's father? I just noticed she didn't give a birthdate for Hilding. Would Borgå church records indicate the name of Nils Helmer's father? Can information be found about Ida Maria Kilpinen, that would confirm her birth and death dates?

June

Denise
04-12-07, 18:59
Hi June,
I don't know if this will help, but here are the farm names with families named Kilpinen.

Best Regards,
Denise

Dweller's name Parish name Village name Farm name/Status Time period
Kilpinen Koski, HL Koski Handverkare, pg 167 1861-1870
Kilpinen Lammi Koivukehä Handverkare, pg 248 1869-1879
Kilpinen Kuhmoinen Rauhalahti Handverkare, pg 468 1868-1875
Kilpinen Janakkala Irjala Irjala, pg 90 1862-1868
Kilpinen Jämsä Honkala Keskinen Vakaslahti, pg 206 1871-1880
Kilpinen Hailuoto Hailuoto Kesti No 13 1891-1900
Kilpinen Renko Oinaala Konkinoja No 13 1867-1873
Kilpinen Jämsä Patala Linna, pg 656 1871-1880
Kilpinen Jämsä Saari Mertalahti, pg 775 1871-1880
Kilpinen Hollola Hahmajärvi Papula No 1 1871-1880
Kilpinen Tervola Koivu Räihä No 13 1870-1880
Kilpinen Laukaa Petruma Riikola No 3 1851-1861
Kilpinen Keminmaa Keminmaa Torpare J, pg 348 1865-1874
Kilpinen Ylikiiminki Ylikiiminki Torpare K, pg 117 1854-1860
Kilpinen Keminmaa Keminmaa Torpare L, pg 392 1865-1874
Kilpinen Tervola Tervola Torpare, C-D, pg 122 1870-1880
Kilpinen Tervola Tervola Torpare, K, pg 153 1870-1880
Kilpinen Jämsä Pietilä Ylä-Pietilä, pg 686 1871-1880

Denise
04-12-07, 19:03
And here are farms named Kilpinen and their dwellers from the Institute of Migration.

Dweller's name Parish name Village name Farm name/Status Time period
- Tervola Koivu Kilpinen No 3 1870-1880
Jääskö Tervola Koivu Kilpinen No 3 1870-1880
Kössö Tervola Koivu Kilpinen No 3 1870-1880
Romsi Tervola Koivu Kilpinen No 3 1870-1880

June Pelo
04-12-07, 20:39
Thanks, Denise. I'll send them on to her. One problem is that she knows very little about the family and has to dig it out bit by bit. She said the family was very secretive about the past and won't say much.

June

Jaska Sarell
04-12-07, 23:21
June,

You mentioned a birth place as Borgå diocese. That's pretty large, as it includes all the Swedish speaking congregations. Other dioceses in Finland are archdiocese of Turku, dioceses of Tampere, Oulu, Mikkeli, Kuopio, Lapua, Helsinki and latest addition Espoo.

Or did you just receive an incorrect word?

:) Jaska

June Pelo
04-12-07, 23:33
Jaska,

She wrote: I found an old swedish record of my father's brother: The name is Nils Helmer Kilpinen born 01 26 1919, the church seal reads "Diccesis, borgoemsis". I figured it meant Borgå. Could it mean something else? Maybe I could ask her to try to scan the document to me?
June

Jaska Sarell
04-12-07, 23:55
I see!

Similar seals are usually in the official papers of parishes, e.g. Diocese Aboensis for diocese of Turku. At least old dioceses use Latinized form of the name in the seal, thus also Borgoensis.

There should be the name of the issuing parish somewhere. In this case that should be together with the Swedish word församling - otherwise together with the Finnish word seurakunta.

:) Jaska

June Pelo
05-12-07, 20:51
Jaska,

She just scanned the Ämbetsbetygg for Ida Maria Kilpinen, b. 4.2. 1844 in Pernå, d. 31.12.1978, unmarried, member of Matteus församling. She moved from Borgå to Helsingfors 1900, then back to Borgå 1902, then back to Helsingfors 1906, then from Södra Svenska församlingen 1907 to Borgå, and then to Helsingfors 14.8.1913.

Her children, born out of marriage:
1. Nils Helmer, b. 26.1.1919, Helsingfors, d. 13.8.1941, unmarried, member of Norra Svenska församlingen.

2. Hilding Emanuel, b. 24.7.1923-477E, Helsingfors, d. 3.27.1994, married 4.10.1951 to Fanny Seppänen, b. 13.1.1923-5263, Kerimäki..... makarna överförda till Vankirkon seurakuntas frånvarande befolkning.


She asked if it was possible to find out the names of the fathers of the two sons and if so, where would she write. The family is under the impression the boys had different fathers.

June

Jaska Sarell
05-12-07, 21:55
There must be something wrong with Ida Maria's birth year :confused:

I think the only possibility to know about father is in the case that someone has been ordered to pay maintenance by court order. Often husband confessed children born before marriage, but there's no husband here. I'm sorry that I don't know more about procedures of finding such court decisions, if any.
My similar experiences are from smaller communities where fatherhood was a common knowledge, mostly confessed, sometimes only gossiped. I haven't ever tried to find any documents. I have treated the cases accordingly in my genealogical data; proper connection or just a note (hidden from reports) for the child in question.

:) Jaska

June Pelo
05-12-07, 22:28
Oops - typo: should be 1884 :(

Ida Maria said that son Nils Helmer's father was the butler at Sibelius' home - guess there's no way to check on that unless there's some documented history of the people who worked for him... She never indicated who the father was of Hilding, except to say it wasn't the butler. I think this would make an interesting movie. ;)

June

Jaska Sarell
08-12-07, 15:26
Very quick visit to the NA today gave partial results

Ida Maria Kilpinen was born on 4 Feb 1884 in Pernå parish, Påvalsby village, where his father Emanuel Andersson Kilpinen was a farm hand at Envalds farm at that time. He and his wife Wilhelmina Malachiasdotter were born in Orimattila:
4 Aug 1851 Emanuel
16 Jul 1856 Wilhelmina
parents: farmer Malachias Simonsson and wife Anna Lisa Andersdotter (age 27) at Niemi village, Ojala farm.

SORRY :mad:
I copied a wrong line for Emanuel, there was another born 8 Aug 1851, but his father was Johan, not Anders.

Unfortunately Orimattila is not so well presented in HisKi :(

:) Jaska

June Pelo
08-12-07, 17:45
Thanks, Jaska. There's been new information discovered. Ida's granddaughter has found a photo taken of Ida in 1922 and on the back is written :"Ståhlberg, 1922". Ida did work for the former president for a while and her youngest son was born there in 1923, and she also worked for Sibelius in his Helsinki home. Ida spoke about his drinking problem. Tarja has a picture of Ida ironing Sibelius' starched collar. Of course, all these recollections aren't helping Tarja find the name of her father's father. I've told her she probably won't find the name and that she should give up, but she is determined and has written to the church in Helsinki.

June