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Ayla
28-08-08, 15:28
Hi Everyone!

I don't suppose anyone has this lady in their databases? I am trying to find out what happened to her and if she was married to my great uncle.

I'm afraid I dont know much at all, no birthdate etc. All I managed to find out is that her name was :
Alexandra Frangen
She married Frans Fredrik Brander on 19th June 1897
They had 1 son called Frans Yrjo Brander who was born on 16th September 1902.

I am really trying to find out if she was married to my great uncle Frans Fredrik...or not. Was it just coincidence that she married a man with the same name? Or was she really his first wife and if so, what happened to her and their son Frans Yrjo?

Many thanks as always.
Ayla

Karen Norwillo
28-08-08, 16:53
Ayla,
You don't mention where this marriage and son's birth occured, US or Finland? That would help alot.
There is a matching marriage on Family Search LDS for 19 June 1897 in Pori, Turku Pori, Finland, for Frans Fredrik Brander and Aleksandra Vilhelmina Frangen. This Frans Fredrik was born 2 Aug 1868 in Ulvila, Turku Pori and died 16 Apr 1907, no location given. Does this fit your family?
Karen

Karen Norwillo
28-08-08, 17:13
Frans Yrjo Brander, same birthday, was born in Ulvila, Turku Pori, Finland and died 13 Aug 1982 no location given. On 25 Sep 1927, he married Aina Maria Lehtila in Pori, Turku Pori. She was born 7 Nov 1899, no location given.
Frans Fredrik's father was Mauritz Brander and his mother was Maria Sofia Johansdotter Soderlin.
Karen

Karen Norwillo
28-08-08, 18:04
From Hiski:

7 Nov 1858 Björnesborg village, Ulvila, Mauritz Brander and Maria Sofia Johansdotter of Koivisto village, Maijala farm. So I don't know where the Sodelin comes from on LDS.
There are 9 births listed for this couple in Uvila (Ulvsby)
16.9.1859 Mauritz in Koivisto village
13.8.1861 Maria Alexandra in Ragvaldsby village
19.12.1862 Eva Maria in Ragvaldsby
9.7.1865 Johan Viktor Ragvaldsby
2.8.1868 Frans Fredrik Ragvaldsby
5.3.1872 Edla Johanna and Ida Sofia Ragvaldsby
16.7.1874 Oskar Reinhold in Koivisto
6.7.1879 Carl Gustaf in Koivisto. Mother's age listed 45-50 for last two births.

There are also two more births listed for Frans Fredrik and Aleksandra
20.11.1897 Frans Wilhelm
30.9.1899 Ida Maria in Aittaluoto village.

There is also a birth on 3.6.1903 for Anni Matilda born to Frans Fredrik Brander and Emilia Matilda. I don't know if this is a second marriage for Frans Fredrik.

Ayla
28-08-08, 18:26
Thank you Karen!
I think I am out of practice! :o
I forgot to mention that this all happened in Finland and in the Pori/Ulvila area and I don't think any of them went to the States.
I will look closely at the names you have given and see if any of it matches.

Karen Norwillo
28-08-08, 21:44
Ayla,
A few more notes about this family.
Maria Sofia Johansdotter Soderlin was born 2 May 1931
Aleksandra Vilhelmina Frangén was born 2 Jul 1865 in Ulvila, T-P, Finland
Aina Maria Lehtila was born 7 Nov 1899 in Koskenkyla, Kullaa, T-P, Finland. She died 18 Oct 1994.
Karen

Lasse1951
28-08-08, 21:52
Ciao Ayla,

In my database I have Frans Fredrik born 23 jul 1882 in Pori, he first married Alexandra Frangén on 19 jun 1897, I don't have any other information on her.
Frans Fredrik then married Anna Wilhelmina Söderman on 16 jun 1906 in Pori, Anna was born 25 mar 1877 in Pori.

As I recall I got this information from an other researcher digging into the Rogel Family from Merikarvia.

Frans Fredrik have roots into the Rogel family.

The Rogels have their own website, where it's also mentioned the enormous book that they published 2007. 1200 pages of info, no I don't have the book, but I have see it, massive:-)

Here is a link to the page about the book

http://personal.fimnet.fi/private/aaltoset/rogel/rogelin_sukukirja.html

Yes I know, it's only in finnish, but there is emails and other links to persons that you can try to reach by email and ask:-)

The main page is here http://personal.fimnet.fi/private/aaltoset/rogel/englishpages.html

Try to contact Ansa Huhtala, you find the email on the page about the book.
If she doesn't manage english, drop me the mail and I'll translate it.

Cheers,

Lasse Holm

Karen Norwillo
28-08-08, 22:09
Lasse,
With a birth date of 1882, Frans Fredrik would have been only 15 at marriage. Aleksandra was born in 1865 according to what I found. That would seem to fit more with a 1868 birth for Frans Fredrik. Hiski has 2 Jul 1865 to dreng. enkan Maria Gustafsdotter Frangén oä Aleksandra.

Lasse1951
28-08-08, 22:31
Lasse,
With a birth date of 1882, Frans Fredrik would have been only 15 at marriage. Aleksandra was born in 1865 according to what I found. That would seem to fit more with a 1868 birth for Frans Fredrik.

Hi Karen,

Made some digging into several gedcoms I've got through the years concerning familys with roots in Merikarvia (Sastmola in Swedish) it seems that you just might be right. I'll try to check them out with the orginal researchers, because there is some differencies among them, there is also different parents, confusing. Maybe there is two Frans Fredriks, and both married only once???

I have one mate that have the book I'll call him tomorrow and ask if he could do a checkup.
I'll let you all know what I find.

Cheers,

Lasse Holm

Ayla
28-08-08, 23:02
Hey guys,
thank you so very much for helping me out.
I am confused about this for exactly the same reason so it will be great to get to the bottom of it!
If it helps then there are some things that I am 100% certain of
(because I have a photo of his grave!)
My great uncle Frans Fredrik Brander was born on 23rd July 1882 and he died on the 16th September 1944.
He did change his surname to Paloheimo but this was much much later, what I mean is, years after he married Anna Soderman.

My second cousins dont know of a 1st wife before their great grandmother but that doesn't mean she didnt exist of course. The dates do seem a bit out though dont they, it's not likely that he married at 15 but then again, I just found out this week that another cousin of my mum's married at 16! (and this was in the 20's) so I guess that we should always try to get a definitive answer I guess.

After reading through what you have both written, it does seem likely that it is mere coincidence and there were 2 Frans Fredrik's. But hey, let's see what you come up with Lasse!

Huge thanks again

Karen Norwillo
29-08-08, 00:57
Ayla,
I found in Pori, Fredrik Brander and Maria Lovisa 25 born 23.7.1882 Frans Fredrik
16.5.1873 Rauma village Liinaharja farm to Albert Mattsson Frangen and Sofia Adolfina Pettersdotter 31 Aleksandra.
So it looks like there are 2 Frans Fredrik Brander and 2 Aleksandra Frangen. This one is 9 years older than Frans, but it's better than 17.

Karen Norwillo
29-08-08, 02:22
Ayla,
According to Hiski info, Frans Yrjo's mother Aleksandra was 35-40 at his birth. That would have her born between 1862-1867, which fits the one born in 1865 and not the one born in 1873. Which would have a 32 year old woman marrying a 15 year old boy. I doubt it. Karen

Ayla
29-08-08, 12:01
:D :D yep, you are right there Karen!
Sometimes I would like to trade my 50 year old man in for a younger model (seeing as I am a very young 40 year old myself :) but a 32 year old going for a 15 year old....mmmm doubtful!
Many thanks

Ayla
29-08-08, 13:38
Thanks again guys for your help. I think we can round this one up. I asked someone who has the big book to check in it for me and he confirms that these are 2 different men. It's all just coincidental it seems. The 2 Frans' are related too, but goodness knows how, I will work that one out one day but not yet!
:)

Lasse1951
29-08-08, 20:52
Hi Ayla & Karen,

I got hold of the researcher I mentioned yesterday, waiting for answer from him.
In the meantime I've tried to logically combine the info I have collected through the years. Could you do a fast check on four jpg pic I've uploaded to my website, I'll correct them if needed after I've got the answers from my friend.

The files are as follows:

Frans Fredrik Brander ancestors number one: http://www.the-holms.org/FransFredrik1a.jpg
Frans Fredrik Brander descendants number one: http://www.the-holms.org/FransFredrik1d.jpg

Frans Fredrik Brander ancestors number two: http://www.the-holms.org/FransFredrik2a.jpg
Frans Fredrik Brander descendants number two: http://www.the-holms.org/FransFredrik2d.jpg

Until I've got the info from my mate these pic's aren't the defenitive truth, maybe not even after:-)

Ayla, the Rogel Family is keeping the records of all belonging to the family, I remember that a saw a link to a pdf file were one can inform them of the releationship and family information on their web site, check it out and submit your information.

Cheers,

Lasse Holm

PS. I'll let you know, when I get verification on my believings....

Ayla
29-08-08, 21:36
Hei Lasse,

My family is definately number 2!
I have all the records now for the children and grandchildren and great grandchildren of Frans Fredrik Brander - those with his first and only wife, Anna. I am in email contact with Aino's children - my second cousins :))

I will pass it all on to you very soon, I am almost there!
But I didnt understand about the Rogel family......should I give them all my data on my great grandparents (Fredrik and Maria Sofia Ruuhikorpi) too? Or just the data from Frans Fredrik and his family?

Many thanks Lasse,
Ayla

Lasse1951
29-08-08, 22:56
Hei Lasse,

My family is definately number 2!
I have all the records now for the children and grandchildren and great grandchildren of Frans Fredrik Brander - those with his first and only wife, Anna. I am in email contact with Aino's children - my second cousins :))

I will pass it all on to you very soon, I am almost there!
But I didnt understand about the Rogel family......should I give them all my data on my great grandparents (Fredrik and Maria Sofia Ruuhikorpi) too? Or just the data from Frans Fredrik and his family?

Many thanks Lasse,
Ayla

Ayla

I'll tell you what to pass on to the Rogel family after I've got your information, I was just a moment ago speaking on the phone to one of their researchers, he will try to get some more info to me in the near future, there are more books about the involved familys that I knew about, I'll let you know asap when I get the info.

Cheers,

Lasse Holm

Lasse1951
29-08-08, 23:24
For all of you that wondering why I'm interesting, there is paths from Ayla that come into both my mothers and my fathers ancestor lineage. On my mothers side we're speaking on the south of ostrobothnia and 'satakunta'' area, then again on my fathers side there is paths coming from and over balticum into finland. My lineage can be found on http://www.the-holms.org

Lasse Holm

Ayla
30-08-08, 02:45
Yep, me and Lasse are cousins ;)

thx again, I am just waiting on a few dates of birth from one branch then Im done, oh yes, I need to work out how to send copies to everyone! But I will ask about that when I am absolutely ready! :D