PDA

View Full Version : Caisa Gretha Johansdotter Nybränn



budjohnson
04-01-09, 15:09
Would anyone who has access to church records from Nederpurmo, confirm the persons whose marriage is recorded in HisKi as Hans Mattsson Perthållar and Gretha Johansdotter on Nov. 21, 1822. I have four children born from 1823 to 1829 to Bd. Hans Mattsson and Caisa Gretha Johansdotter. I have found a Caisa Gretha Johansdotter Nybränn born on March 7, 1794. I see from census records that Perthållar farm and Nybränn farm neighbor each other.
Bud

June Pelo
04-01-09, 19:48
Bud,

Hans and Greta were married 21 Nov 1822. And there are 3 births listed for them: Matts, b. 1823; Maria, b. 1826 and Lena Lisa, b. 1829.
I also found that Caisa Gretha Johansdotter was born 7 Mar 1794 to Johan Johansson Nybränn and Greta Johansdotter. I didn't find a marriage record for them in Purmo.

Perhaps Jaska has Purmo records and can verify that.

budjohnson
09-01-09, 02:35
Bud,

Hans and Greta were married 21 Nov 1822. And there are 3 births listed for them: Matts, b. 1823; Maria, b. 1826 and Lena Lisa, b. 1829.
I also found that Caisa Gretha Johansdotter was born 7 Mar 1794 to Johan Johansson Nybränn and Greta Johansdotter. I didn't find a marriage record for them in Purmo.

Perhaps Jaska has Purmo records and can verify that.

Hi June

I have another child born to the same couple in 1824 named Anna. Caisa Gretha is just listed as Caisa Johansdotter. I think I found the death of Hans Mattsson on Dec. 14, 1829. Looking at the census records for Perthållar farm it appears that Caisa is listed as a widow in 1830, 1835, 1840 and 1845, but can not find her death on Perthållar farm.

Bud

June Pelo
09-01-09, 22:00
Bud,

It looks like Caisa Greta was one of 12 children born to her parents between 1784 and 1799 on Nybränn farm. Her mother was 25 when she had her first child, but there's no marriage record for Johan Johansson Nybränn and Greta Johansdotter in Purmo from 1777 to 1784. So I'll drop that matter.

Karen Norwillo
09-01-09, 23:14
I found one marriage on 10.11.1782, Klåfvus, Johan Johansson and Marg. Johansdotter in Purmo. I know it's not on Nybränn farm, but maybe they moved before the children started coming in 1784. Just a thought.

June Pelo
09-01-09, 23:46
Karen,

I saw the same thing and wondered about it, but we have no way of knowing...

budjohnson
10-01-09, 15:42
I found one marriage on 10.11.1782, Klåfvus, Johan Johansson and Marg. Johansdotter in Purmo. I know it's not on Nybränn farm, but maybe they moved before the children started coming in 1784. Just a thought.

Karen

I guess the real problem is that there seems to be two couples in the same area at the same time. One woman seems to be older based on her age at the time of the births. All of these farms are on the same page in the 1810 census and the one couple on Nybränn farm has two sons named Anders and Hans. The also have three daughters, one of which is Caisa. I guess that it would only be possible to find out for sure is to look at the original church records and that may be confusing as well.

Bud

Steven
10-01-09, 19:22
Hi there!

I think you're on the right track - have been looking at my book compiled by Anders With. He lists Margareta Johansdotter born 1757 in Klåvus, which may explain that connection. He lists her death in Nybrann May 14, 1832. The couple was probably married in Klåvus but never lived there, as Johan was from Nybrann, and died there as well January 5, 1836.

He further has Margareta's mother as Anna Danielsdotter Buur (b. 24 April 1735).

Steven

Steven
10-01-09, 19:46
Oops! Forgot to mention: Anna Danielsdotter Buur married Johan Henricsson Klåvus on Nov. 16, 1755. He was born 19 Feb. 1733 to Henric Tomasson and Anna (?).

Steven

budjohnson
12-01-09, 15:50
Hi there!

I think you're on the right track - have been looking at my book compiled by Anders With. He lists Margareta Johansdotter born 1757 in Klåvus, which may explain that connection. He lists her death in Nybrann May 14, 1832. The couple was probably married in Klåvus but never lived there, as Johan was from Nybrann, and died there as well January 5, 1836.

He further has Margareta's mother as Anna Danielsdotter Buur (b. 24 April 1735).

Steven

Steven

Following your entry's from the Anders With book I found from HisKi Margareta Johansdotter born 19 Jan 1758. I have also found Johan Johansson Nybränn born 15 Oct 1761 and their marriage on 10 Nov 1782.
But I am still trying to make the connection to their daughter Caisa Gretha Johansdotter Nybränn to Hans Mattsson Perthållar who was married on 21 Nov 1822. Is there any reference in the book to confirm this?

Bud

Steven
14-01-09, 02:51
You know, Bud, this is looking a little bit curious - A. With didn't list either a marriage or death for Caisa Greta; he does have marriage information on the two eldest siblings, Maria and Anders. He also has two older sisters (Lisbet and Anna) as having moved in 1815; doesn't say where. I've been looking through the book for anything on Hans Mattsson Perthållar but haven't found him yet.

When looking at Hiski, Caisa Greta's (or Greta's) age at the time of the children's births indicate her birth between 1794 and 1796. I think there was a Caisa Greta Johansdotter born in 1796 in Staraby (just outside of Jakobstad), but she seems to have married in 1817, and there doesn't seem to be any indication that Hans's spouse was a widow. There don't seem to be any other strong possibilities for a spouse of said Hans Mattsson, but...

It will be very interesting to see what anyone can find in church records; I think they usually include the parent(s) names for both spouses.


Steven

budjohnson
14-01-09, 15:08
Steven

What information is there on daughter Maria? I have her as married in 1857. Do you find a match for that?

Bud

Jaska Sarell
14-02-09, 19:44
It took some time before I had an opportunity to check that Caisa Gretha Johansdr Nybränn, b. 7 Mar 1794 was indeed the wife of Hans Mattsson Perthållar b. 14 Jun 1803 d. 14 Dec 1729.

Maria b. 26 Mar 1826 married Johan Johansson Kornjärvi b. 3 May 1831. His parents' family had moved to Purmo from somewhere yet unknown.

:) Jaska

Jaska Sarell
14-02-09, 22:51
It looks like the family of Hans Mattsson's parents have come to Purmo between 1812 and 1816. The communion book 1824-1831 has
Enkan Maria Pehrsdr 1753
Enkan Anna Johansdr 5/4 1787
Hans Mattsson 14/6 1803 död 14/12 1829
H. Caisa Gretha Johansdr 7/3 1794
Johan Mattsson 25/6 1804
Matts Mattsson 13/6 1808
Hinric Mattsson 5/1 1810
Maria Mattsdr 15/6 1812
Gretha Mattsdr 24/11 1816
Lena Mattsdr 12/1 1818
.. then Hans' children, Johan's wife Britha Wendela Johansdr 12/2 1804 and children.

Only Gretha and Lena are born in Purmo. Father Matts Hansson died 10.5.1819. Third child born in Purmo: Anders b. 27.2.1819 d. 20.6.1819.

I couldn't find none of the older sibblings nor parents anywhere in HisKi.
Moving records would now be handy for tracing them.

:) Jaska

budjohnson
14-02-09, 23:32
It took some time before I had an opportunity to check that Caisa Gretha Johansdr Nybränn, b. 7 Mar 1794 was indeed the wife of Hans Mattsson Perthållar b. 14 Jun 1803 d. 14 Dec 1729.

Maria b. 26 Mar 1826 married Johan Johansson Kornjärvi b. 3 May 1831. His parents' family had moved to Purmo from somewhere yet unknown.

:) Jaska

Jaska

I have the parents of Johan Johansson Kornjärvi born 3 May 1831 as Johan Johansson Svarfvar born 31 August 1796 and Beatha Ericsdotter Mattjus born 15 December 1805. I have them married 31 May 1829 on Svarfvar farm and moved to Kornjärvi farm where Johan was born.

Bud

Jaska Sarell
15-02-09, 02:49
Bud,

You seem to be right! And so is June in her email.
The date and name changes seem to confuse anybody :confused:
I looked at the communion book 1852-1859 only and couldn't see the past :eek:
Johan Johansson Svarvar/Kornjärvi b. HisKi 31.8.1796 CB 31.9.1796
2. wife Sara Lena Johansdr [HisKi: Sara Magdalena, oo 8.5.1838] b. 9.12.1798
dr Greta Lisa [HisKi: Lena Lisa] b. 13.11.1829
sn Johan b. HisKi 9.4.1832 CB 3.5.1831
wife Maria Hansdr (Pertar) 26.3.1826

:) Jaska

Karen Norwillo
15-02-09, 16:32
Jaska et al,
So which is the correct DOB for Johan Johansson, 9 Apr 1832 or 3 May 1831? I had the first one. Is his mother Sara, not Beatha?
Karen

June Pelo
15-02-09, 17:36
Johan didn't remarry to Sara until 1838, so Beatha must be the mother - son Johan was born during the first marriage.

Jaska Sarell
15-02-09, 18:44
As to the DOB, it's better stick to HisKi date and possibly add a remark that it later appeared differently. Though HisKi may contain errors, a year change is usually not possible. Copying from one set of communion book to another often leads to a minor error, though here is everything changed which is unusual, unless another row contained the erroneous date.

Just for the record, I upload a piece of that 1852-58 communion book, where the family appears.

:) Jaska

Karen Norwillo
15-02-09, 22:41
Don't know when the assignment of days in a month came into being, but Sept doesn't have 31 days, but Aug does.

Jaska Sarell
15-02-09, 23:26
Don't know when the assignment of days in a month came into being, but Sept doesn't have 31 days, but Aug does.
Karen, you are perfectly right! Whoever miscopied the date didn't think about that. Neither did I as I didn't even try to enter Sept 31, when the genealogy program would have complained :p

Almanack page for August 1796 (http://almanakka.helsinki.fi/arkisto/179608.gif)
Almanack page for September 1796 (http://almanakka.helsinki.fi/arkisto/179609.gif)
Other old almanacks here (http://almanakka.helsinki.fi/arkisto/index3.html)

:) Jaska

budjohnson
16-02-09, 15:39
Johan didn't remarry to Sara until 1838, so Beatha must be the mother - son Johan was born during the first marriage.

June

Yes I have Beatha Ericsdotter Mattjus died on Kornjärvi farm March 9, 1837.

" Married 2nd 8 MAY 1838 in Purmo to. KORNJÄRVI, Sara Magdalena
Johansdotter. /BÄCK/ Born 9 DEC 1798 in Purmo, Överpurmo Bäck. Died 5
SEP 1867 in Purmo, Övepurmo Kornjärvi (ålderdom)."
Bud

budjohnson
16-02-09, 15:44
Jaska et al,
So which is the correct DOB for Johan Johansson, 9 Apr 1832 or 3 May 1831? I had the first one. Is his mother Sara, not Beatha?
Karen

Karen


This is what I was emailed.

" Probandus
KORNJÄRVI , Johan Johansson. Born 9 APR 1832 in Purmo, Överpurmo
Kornjärvi. Died 14 DEC 1868 in Purmo, Överpurmo Finnabba. Torpareson.
Född enligt dopboken 09.04.1832 på Kornjärvi. Från och med KB 1843-49 är
han antecknad som född 03.05.1831 vilket i fortsättningen står som hans
födelsedag. Bonde på Finnabba."

The HisKi record has April 9, 1832, but June told me that the KB record should be the correct date.

Bud