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Denise
31-03-09, 20:17
Hi,
Does anyone know where I would find births in 1759 in Virrat? It seems there are none listed on SSHY or Hiski.

Thank-you,
Denise

Jaska Sarell
31-03-09, 20:40
Additional information in HisKi tells that part of church archives was destroyed during the war 1808-09 :mad:
The first history book set is from 1760-1805 and first communion book from 1749-56, but next ones are again missing.
All those seem to be at SSHY (FFHA) site.

:) Jaska

Denise
31-03-09, 21:03
O.K. That is what I feared, Jaska. :mad: Thank-you.

Best Regards,
Denise

harrysme
01-04-09, 20:47
I have a book with lists about farms and farmers in Virrat (and all former Ruovesi). It may help you, if you know something about the person.

Harry

Denise
01-04-09, 21:51
Hi Harry,
This is the only information I have:

Maria Henricintytär born 27.12.1759 Virrat. She had a son born out of wedlock in Virrat named Fredric on 12.10.1792 and they were living on the Kiviniemi farm when he was born. I am trying to find out who Maria Henricintytär's parents were. Hopefully, this is enough information to go on. :(

Thank-you, :)
Best Regards,
Denise

Kaarina
04-04-09, 15:11
You can also search on this page Sukuraitti
http://www.sukujutut.fi/haku/engdefault.asp
and search them by various people and places, some of them have places Virrat. Click on the left side code and then search place.

Kaarina

Denise
04-04-09, 16:53
Hi Kaarina,
Thank-you. I'll check it out. I appreciate your help. :)

Best Regards,
Denise

Denise
06-04-09, 14:28
Hi Harry,
I am attaching 2 images of Maria Henricsdr. born 27.12.1759. Still have no idea of who her parents are, but she lived SERGEANTEN OCH KRONO LANSMAN, BERGSTROM, HILLEBRANDT in the Virrat rippikirja 1775-1787, and then living with her son Abraham in KIVINIEMI, HILLEBRANT, BERGSTROM, MENNAN?DER, HILLEBRANDT in the Virrat rippikirja 1798-1804. I don't know if this will help you any in finding her parents but I am hoping this may help. In 1775-1787 her birthdate is listed as 27.2.1759 and in 1798-1804 it is listed as 27.12.1759.

Thank-you,
Best Regards,
Denise

Päivi V.
07-04-09, 13:21
Hello Denise,

Maybe you should check this one. I found it in the communion book 1775-1780 of Virrat.

Wermas: bonden Henric Mattsson b.1712 d. 1777, hru (wife) Anna Johansdr. b.1715. They had twin girls Walborg and Maria b. 27.2.1759.

In the next communion book 1781-86 the farmer of Wermas is Gabriel Henricsson b. 26.3.1746.
Mother Anna Johansdr. and the twin girls are still living there.

I didn't find anyone else more suitable Maria Henricsdr as I looked through the whole communion book 1775-1780.

I hope you are lucky in your roots searching!
Päivi V.

Denise
08-04-09, 00:46
Hi Päivi,
I am questioning myself and wondering if there might be two Maria Henricsdotter's born in 1759 with birthdates of 27.12.1759 and 27.2.1759. The one in the rippikirja 1798-1804 is without a doubt the correct one with a birthdate of 27.12.1759 living on the Kiviniemi, Hillebrandt, Bergström, etc. farm. In later images her birthdate is always recorded as 27.12.1759, and even later in years in Jalasjärvi where she moved. I assumed that the other Maric Henricsdr. was her also, living on the Sergeanten och Krono farm in the rippikirja 1775-1787 because the two families I believe are related, and I have a feeling I may be wrong. I am going to do a bit more research on this other Maria Henricdr. that you have found parents for. :confused: I thank you very much for taking the time to research this Maria Henricsdr. for me and I'll check this out further. I appreciate your help greatly! :D

Best Regards,
Denise

Jaska Sarell
08-04-09, 06:19
Denise,

I figure there are same, not just related, families in both images.
The earlier one has Sergeanten och Krono Länsman (sergeant and crown "sheriff") Jacob Joh. Bergström and wife Juliana Hillebrandt (b. 1744).
The later titled Kiviniemi has widow Juliana Hillebrandt (b. 1744).
Their son Jacob Wilhelm and daughter Carolina Fredrica appear in both, and so does Maja Lisa Hillebrandt (probably Juliana's sister) etc.

Looks like it's the same Maria Henricsdr in both records.

Son Fredric's godparents (from original birth record (http://www.sukuhistoria.fi/sshy/kirjat/Kirkonkirjat/virrat/syntyneet_1760-1805_uk500/125.htm)) were:
Länsman A. C. Bergström, Serg. Fredric Bergström, Matts Johanss., Mickel Jöranss., fru Juljana Hillebrant, fru A: C: Långhielm, pig Margeta Ericsdr och Regina Henricsdr alla ifr Kiviniemi

:) Jaska

harrysme
08-04-09, 08:09
Denise

I am sorry it took time before I checked what you had answered to me. You seem to have got a lot of answerbs from elsewhere.

It seems, that Kiviniemi became an independant farm pretty late and it is not mentioned in my book. The only thing I found is that Alexander Cristian Bergsström, who was from Kiviniemi croft belonging to Sipilä farm, founded Hietala farm at 1794.

The first farmers at Vermas were Matti Heikinpoika b 1749 from Kitunen and Kaisa Yrjöntytär b 1750 from Kahila

In Kitunen i did not find Heikki Matinpoika either. The farmer 1709-1710 was Matti Heikinpoika.

So I have nothing certain, but maybe some tips.

Harry

harrysme
08-04-09, 12:41
Denise

A few comments more:

I am not so sure if the date is 27.12.1759 in any of the two books. It could be a long start of 2. And if it was once written in an unclear way it may have been copied wrong later.

If Maria was a decendant of Kitunen farmers, she has a famous relative. Martti Heikipoika Kitunen 1747-1833 was a famous bear hunter (Nordic record, more than 100 bears), with a price from year 1800. On those days beasts were for sure not protected. He was a grand nephew of Matti Heikinpoika in Kitunen and maybe a cousin of Maria.

http://artikkelihaku.kansallisbiografia.fi/artikkeli/449/

Harry

Denise
08-04-09, 14:52
Hi Jaska,
Maybe I am being overly cautious about this Maria Henricsdr. and her birthdate of 27.2.1759 and 27.12.1759. Looking through the Virrat rippikirja 1775-1787 I have found 4 Maria Henricsdr. and the images are attached. Are they all the same? There is one without a birthdate at all in Ickala. I assume when the name is crossed out it means the person moved which is such in at least one of these records. The reason I am being so particular (maybe that isn't the correct word to use) is because of the controversy over who the father was of Fredric, the son of Maria Henricsdr. http://suku.genealogia.fi/archive/index.php/t-3431.html It is believed that Fredrik Bergström b. 11.11.1767 Ruovesi fathered the child Fredric b.12.10.1792 Virrat that Maria Henricsdr. gave birth to, and then married someone else, Liisa Yli-Piirto b. 30.01.1800 Ilmajoki. If you look on SukuForum you will see that Fredric b. 12.10.1792 eventually started using the name Abraham Bergström b. 12.10.1792 Virrat, and if they are one and the same, it is the start of my royal lineage. I am trying to document everything on this lineage, and I guess that is why I am trying to find the Maria Henricsdr. that in later years was always dated as being born on 27.12.1759. I am quite sure that you and Päivi are more than likely correct in them being the same, and I apologize for sounding so skeptical. :o

Thank-you, Jaska
Sincerely,
Denise

Denise
08-04-09, 15:47
Hi,
On Hiski I found the death of Maria Henricsdr. in Oljymäki. Her son, Abraham Bergström was living in Jalasjärvi, Oljymäki in 1840, so I am assuming I am correct in her being his mother and that Fredrik Johan Bergström b.11.11.1767 was the father of Fredric/Abraham b.12.10.1792. Why else would she be buried in Oljymäki where Abraham was living. Just a bit more proof, I guess.

Denise :)




Jalasjärvi
Buried

Link to this event [ 2163472 ]
Died / Buried 21.4.1840 26.4.1840
Village / Farm Öljymäki
Deceased Inh.qv.,kyrkf, Maria Henrdr
Cause of death / Age åld.sv. 80 years 3 months - weeks 25 days
Own comment
Original comment PIK: og.

Denise
08-04-09, 16:01
Hi Harry,
I appreciate all the research you have done for me. This is all making sense to me about the birthdates, etc. on Maria Henricsdr. and I am very grateful for the further information you've sent on her possible family, Kitunen. What a great article on the famous bear hunter! :D I'll have to check this out further, and I thank-you for all of your help and input.

Best Regards,
Sincerely,
Denise

Päivi V.
08-04-09, 17:24
Harry,

Why do you say that the first farmer ay Wermas was Matti Heikinpoika b.1749 and that he came from the Kitunen farm? Did you have Wehmas in mind? It is another farm.

Look at the following pages. The farmer at Wermas is Heikki Matinpoika b.1712, wife Anna Juhontytär.

In the older communion book the name of the farm is Wermaniemi.

http://www.sukuhistoria.fi/sshy/kirjat/Kirkonkirjat/virrat/rippikirja_1775-1787_uk497/38.htm

http://www.sukuhistoria.fi/sshy/kirjat/Kirkonkirjat/virrat/rippikirja_1749-1756_uk497/62.htm

Regards
Päivi V.

Denise
10-04-09, 05:52
Dear Päivi,
After reviewing everything you have posted, and looking further on SSHY I believe you are totally correct on who Maria Henricsdr. parents were, Heikki Matinpoikä b.1712 and Anna Juhontytär. And, I have discovered in my own notes, right under my nose, that she was probably born 27.2.1759! I have had two conflicting birthdates on her for a long time. :o I have a quick question though... what does this mean? Wondering if this Regina is a sibling of Maria.

Regina Henricsdotter, alla ifr Kiviniemi

I believe alla means under? but what do the letters ifr mean? I am attaching the same record Jaska attached in the above post for you to see.

Thank-you so much! :D
You are awesome!
Best Regards,
Sincerely,
Denise

Denise
10-04-09, 05:56
Hi again Päivi,
I forgot the attachment! :)

Denise

Päivi V.
10-04-09, 11:53
Dear Denise,

I can't say at the moment if Regina Henricsdr. is a sibling of Maria Henricsdr. Regina was a rather common name in Virrat and so was Henric.

Alla is Swedish and means all and ifr is an abbreviatiaon from the Swedish ifrån and means from. So, your words mean: all from Kiviniemi.

I hope you have found your Maria :)

Best regards
Päivi V.

harrysme
13-04-09, 15:46
Harry,

Why do you say that the first farmer ay Wermas was Matti Heikinpoika b.1749 and that he came from the Kitunen farm? Did you have Wehmas in mind? It is another farm.

Look at the following pages. The farmer at Wermas is Heikki Matinpoika b.1712, wife Anna Juhontytär.

In the older communion book the name of the farm is Wermaniemi.

http://www.sukuhistoria.fi/sshy/kirjat/Kirkonkirjat/virrat/rippikirja_1775-1787_uk497/38.htm

http://www.sukuhistoria.fi/sshy/kirjat/Kirkonkirjat/virrat/rippikirja_1749-1756_uk497/62.htm

Regards
Päivi V.

Sorry for misleading you Denise and Päivi. I really mixed Wehmas to Wermas.

About Wermas my book tells:

Vermas (Vermaniemi)

Originnally a croft, separated from Sipilä 1787.

Heikki Matinpoika, crofter 1752-1763, b 1712, d 1777
wife Anna Juhontytär Marss 1764, b 1715

their son
Kaapo Heikinpoika, crofter 1765-ab. 1790, lived after that in Korteniemi.

It seems, that the communionbook and my book has a different oppinion whether Heikki was a crofter or an independent farmer.

Regards,
Harry

Denise
13-04-09, 21:30
Hi Harry,
No problem! :D And I thank-you so much for researching this for me. I truly appreciate your help.

Sincerely,
Denise

harrysme
14-04-09, 11:46
Sold. (soldier) Johan Marss could have some connection with Anna Juhontytär.

http://www.sukuhistoria.fi/sshy/kirjat/Kirkonkirjat/virrat/rippikirja_1749-1756_uk497/26.htm

Harry

Denise
14-04-09, 13:04
Hi Päivi and Harry,
Thank-you for the translation; wish I could read Swedish and Finnish, Päivi. I usually try to google the words but sometimes they just don't make sense! :(
Alla is Swedish and means all and ifr is an abbreviatiaon from the Swedish ifrån and means from. So, your words mean: all from Kiviniemi.
And thank-you, Harry for the additional information on Johan Marss.
Sold. (soldier) Johan Marss could have some connection with Anna Juhontytär.
I am so happy and thrilled to finally have found Maria Henricsdr. parents... You both are wonderful! :D

Best Regards,
Denise