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seele01
04-04-09, 20:12
I am looking at my great grandfather August Isaksson Bergstrom's family's adult communion record. In his own "anmarkningar" (additional comments?) field of the record, it states -

Rymde ?tiu? Amerika, återdom 1887.
Svartbok p.141

The first line pretty much means he ran away and returned in 1887 (I think...). But what about the second line? I know it means "blackbook", as in (I think) the church record books...but I am confused. I am under the assumption that the blackbooks are the overall books that record birth/marriage/death records, children's and adult's communion records, moving in/out records, etc. (Am I wrong here?) So when it says "blackbook p.141" for my ancestor, how exactly do I find that record today? What type of record does it refer to? (a communion record? birth record? something else?)

Anyway, thanks for the help. I can post a picture if nessessary...but honestly my scan of the record is crappy, so the picture would be too. Thanks again everyone! I am sorry for doing nothing on this forum but asking questions, but I am new to this lol. Thanks.

Merja
05-04-09, 09:57
Hi,

In this context I think svartbok p.141 refers to page 141 in the´Crime book´ or ´Punishment book´ kept by the pastor. It is a separate book that lists court convictions of different crimes like public drunkenness, theft, making spirits illegally etc. In some parishes the crime is also mentioned in the communion book but not always. These books are not always available for genealogists.

Merja

seele01
05-04-09, 20:32
Thank you for the reply! It makes perfect sense, as the man in question (August Isaksson Bergstrom) counterfeited 18,000 Markka of loan notices, and had to run away to America in 1883.

I just checked familysearch.org's court record books for Porvoo, and unfortunately they only have up till 1871. Thats too bad, because I really want to find out why he counterfeited the money, and how he returns 3 years later without getting in trouble or anything.

Anyway, thank you for your help!!

Denise
06-04-09, 00:00
Hi Rob,
I didn't know FamilySearch had court record books! :confused: Where would I find that section?

Thank-you,
Denise

P.S. It seems to me that your research skills are pretty awesome for someone that has just started genealogy! :D

seele01
06-04-09, 20:25
Well under Porvoo's section of the Familysearch.com's Library Cataloge is a link to- "Finland, Uusimaa, Porvoo - Court records". In that contains-

Ilmoitusasiat, 1750-1797 Suomi. Kihlakunnanoikeus (Porvoon tuomiokunta)
Ilmoitusasiat, 1760-1805 Suomi. Kihlakunnanoikeus (Porvoon tuomiokunta)
Ilmoitusasiat, 1810-1860 Suomi. Kihlakunnanoikeus (Porvoon tuomiokunta)
Ilmoitusasiat, 1816-1871 Suomi. Kihlakunnanoikeus (Kymen tuomiokunta)
Tuomiokirjat, 1621-1748 Suomi. Kihlakunnanoikeus (Porvoon tuomiokunta)
Tuomiokirjat, 1622-1805 Suomi. Raastuvanoikeus (Porvoo)
Tuomiokirjat, 1750-1809 Suomi. Kihlakunnanoikeus (Porvoon tuomiokunta)
Tuomiokirjat, 1773-1793 Suomi. Erikoistuomioistuimet (Porvoo)

Unfortunately, I am pretty sure that the Court Records they have are sporadic...Places like Porvoo and Helsinki have them available, but I bet rural areas might not (I haven't checked, though).

And thank you very much for the compliment! I owe alot of my knowledge from the other people on this forum, though. Oh and my grandmother, who got me started with genealogy.

Later!

Denise
06-04-09, 21:58
Hi Rob,
I knew about the library catalog on familysearch.org, but thought you were able to look at the court records online. ;) The nearest LDS to me is about 50 miles away. The one near my house is never open. The guy that runs that one opens and closes when he feels like it, and the bad part is the printer they have doesn't work even if one was to find something on microfiche to copy! :mad:

Thank-you,
Happy Hunting!
Denise

seele01
08-04-09, 15:37
Man that is terrible, I am sorry for your situation. I have a family history center about 3 miles from me, and it is filled with the nicest and most knowledgable people around. I dont mean to rub it in, but their equipment and information is fantastic as well.

If I were you, I would call up the Family History Library in Utah and let them know the trouble you are having with that place. Maybe they would do something about it?

Denise
08-04-09, 16:16
Hi Rob,
Thanks for rubbing it in about your local LDS! :D In December I went to the LDS in Salt Lake City, Utah during a vacation, but they had so much info. I felt lost on where to research first, and only had about 1 day to do it all in. They were very helpful, but I found that to get anywhere you would need at least a week to spend there. I was helping my husband with his search on his family, and my son, 22 years of age, was bored stiff with it all...a word of advice; if you ever have kids don't take them on vacation with you! If it wasn't something he was interested in he showed it. It was the trip from hell for fourteen days! Actually I could write a script for one of Chevy Chase's vacation movies! :rolleyes:

Best Regards,
Denise

seele01
08-04-09, 21:52
I had a good laugh at you describing your trip was a National Lampoon adventure! Thats pretty cool that you went to the "holy grail" of genealogy research. I totally want to go there, one day. But if I do, like you said, I will have to plan on a week or two of research there. The sheer volume of stuff I want to see that they have is enormous.

I dont know why kids my age dont like genealogy. I am 22 years old too, and I find it a blast. People at work are always interested in my work; it is a great conversation piece. I have actually inspired a few people at school to start asking their grandparents about genealogy, too. At the family history center, I occasionally see people my age doing research, too.

I think there is a "stigma" or "stereotype" with kids that genealogy is a lame old person's pastime. In my mind, nothing could be farther from the truth! To me, it is a Sherlock Holmes adventure, filled with drama and intrigue.

Anyway, I am rambling. Later!

June Pelo
08-04-09, 22:25
I wish I had been interested when I was your age. It would have made research much easier because my older relatives were still living and I could have "picked their brains". Now they're gone and since the younger generation never asked them any questions, all that knowledge has gone with them. Think of all the stories they could have told. I was always curious about living conditions, etc. from those early days. Much of it was never recorded. I never asked my father more details about his boat trip across the Atlantic; about his impression of Ellis Island; how they managed to travel across the US by train without being able to speak English, etc. So while you're young, don't pass up opportunities to learn all you can, besides just
recording dates.

Karen Norwillo
09-04-09, 15:47
I always say, I wish I had just one day with my two sets of grandparents to ask questions and have them answered truthfully. I was too young to have an interest in my roots. When I was, they were gone. Half of what my aunts told me turned out to be untrue, but they were just repeating what they were told. We weren't supposed to ask questions. Sad.

Hagstrom,C.
09-04-09, 18:21
Karen, my situation regarding finding my Swedish Finn roots is much the same as yours. I can remember from a young age wanting to know about my family name and being curious about where my grandpa's family were from originally. I wasn't even aware of the Finnish part of my Swedish heritage. Like you, there were a few family anecdotes that were rather specious and didn't go back much farther than stories mainly to do with the period of time after they'd arrived & were living here. I remember trying to ask my grandfather, but he was a rather taciturn individual and questions weren't encouraged with our family, either.And that is sad. My immediate family were quite small & most of those who would know anything were long gone even then. What I wouldn't give to have a chance to ask again as an adult.The things that I did manage to learn a quarter century on explained quite a bit about his reticence. But what's important here is that without the advent of the internet, the presence of a forum like this, & generous folk like you, June and the others who kindly lend their expertise, I still wouldn't know a thing. So I'm more than grateful for that & now have hope for more progress to come.

Denise
10-04-09, 06:23
Hi,
I too wish I had spent more time asking questions of my great grandmother. :( We lived in the Detroit area since I was about one year old, and just took summer vacations to the Upper Peninsula of Michigan where she lived. Sad, the stories she could have told me because she lived to be 95 years old, and at 93 had even flown to Finland to visit relatives, who I know nothing about. She only spoke Finnish and I had to have my grandmother (her daughter) translate everything she said. But, one fond memory of her was that she taught me to swear in Finnish! :p

Denise

kivinen1
10-04-09, 07:43
Hi,
I too wish I had spent more time asking questions of my great grandmother. :( We lived in the Detroit area since I was about one year old, and just took summer vacations to the Upper Peninsula of Michigan where she lived. Sad, the stories she could have told me because she lived to be 95 years old, and at 93 had even flown to Finland to visit relatives, who I know nothing about. She only spoke Finnish and I had to have my grandmother (her daughter) translate everything she said. But, one fond memory of her was that she taught me to swear in Finnish! :p

Denise
All the good ones do.

My grandmother's last trip back "home" was in 1993, when she was 92.33 years old. She lived until just about a month and a half shy of 99. Luckily, I got so much info from her, and have more on tape. She and I traveled in Finland together on at least 4 of my 9 times. She was the one that inspired my interest in all of the Finnish things, particularly around Nedervetil.:D

seele01
14-04-09, 19:29
While the younger you are the better it is when it comes to questioning your family for genealogical information, most adolesents like myself "drop the ball", and do not realize the vast information from elders that is attainable untill it is too late. I did not give a shit about genealogy untill my paternal grandmother (the family genealogist) died, and my dad inherited the family records she compiled. Now, being an avid ameteur genealogist, I truely regret not learning more from my grandmother when I still had the chance.

I am a great example not starting genealogy untill it is "too late". The members of my Finnish side of the family are all dead, literally every family member who is at least 1/2 Finnish is dead. The last one to have been fully Finnish (my grandfather) died in 1947, just a month after my mom was born (to his own son's wife, no less...yeah, it is very strange and creepy). My mother was henceforth raised by her true half brother as her biological mother (who was her half-brother's wife). This truth was hidden for 60 years, untill my mother and I proved it with DNA evidence.

On my father's side, my great grandfather abandoned the family, and the mention of his name was (and still is, annoyingly) a taboo to mention. Every generation (literally, *sigh*) of my grandmother's family has had some sort of "arguement" that led to never talking again for the rest of their lives. I can remember being 15 and being told of the the "evil sister" of my grandmother, and being yelled at and forced to "hold my tounge" when talking about the stupidity of my grandmother never talking to her own sibling for 60 years. To this day, my dad will say that his mother never talking to his aunt ever again was "my grandmother at her worst".

So all I am trying to say is, it seems that every family has taboos and other things to never mention. Some family elders just don't talk about extended family to children, and others have sercrets or pre-conceived anger and hatred for events that happened half a century ago, and will not explain the truth to their grandchildren whom they percieve "will not understand or agree". I guess all I am trying to say is, no matter how old you are, no matter how many genealogical regrets you have; you should not feel bad about them. Genealogy itself is about finding FACTS, and as sad as it is, many old family members bend history and refuse to give "FACTS" to young fledgling genealogists. That is one of the reasons genealogy is so great...as you are able to uncover the TRUTH behind the random secrets, bad histories, and uncouth characters of your family line.