PDA

View Full Version : A Swedish sentence I need help translating...



seele01
20-06-09, 20:58
Hey everybody,

My grt grt grt grandmother, Catharina Johansdotter, was hung from a tree in Nasebacka, Porvoo, Finland, in 1818. Her death record curiously has another sentence in it that might help in my discovery of why she was hung...but I cannot translate it. The writing isn't that great, and I cannot find most of the words in my swedish dictionary, but that might be due to the fact that I am not reading it right. Can anyone help me out here?

http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/1553/1818deathrecordlarge.jpg

Here is the largest highest resolution I could scan from the microfilm. I scanned it in three parts, and taped each section together. Even at max resolution, alot of the letters are hard to make out (at least for me...). I then took a digital camera image of it, which is the image linked to above.

Anyway, can anyone assist me in translating this? This is what I am seeing, though I know it is most likely very wrong -

"Beo_n(s/f)ves icke till a(ri?)dare. - "(S?)"an begnasves enligt utdrag af (k?)arads (A?)_deus protoco(li?) af d. 4 Nov 1818 No 444."

Thank you all very much for the help...I am very curious as to what "no. 444" means...could that be a court record number?

Anyway, thanks again!

June Pelo
21-06-09, 16:26
Rob,

I can't make out the words very well, but I think it refers to burial. begraven means buried. " begnasves enligt utdrag af (k?)arads (A?)_deus protoco(li?) af d. 4 Nov 1818 No 444." It could mean she was buried according to minutes from court record of 4 Nov 1818 and No. 444 could mean a court number of some sort. harad refers to court or jurisdiction. protoco could mean minutes.

cdahlin
21-06-09, 19:12
Hi!

June is very close to the right translation.

I tried to look at the other text too and found out that this was a tragedy. The lady (Chatarina Johansdotter) from Tjusterby was a widow of a farmer, 48 years old. She was found hanging in a tree on 12.0?.1818. Under her name is a sentence "begrafvas icke tillsvidare" (=not to be buried yet). Probably because of following investigations in case of a crime.

Probably after finishing the investigation follows the text "Can be buried according to a court decision of Nov 4, 1818, number 444". (Får begrafvas enligt utdrag af härads rättens protokoll af den 4 Nov 1818, No 444)

Ritva Winter
21-06-09, 19:21
Rob,

A tragic story. She was found hanging from a tree, i e she had either committed suicide or been murdered. If she had committed suicide she was not allowed a christian burial. In this case 'not to be buried as for now' i e during the time awaiting results of the investigation. In this case the county-court later permitted it, according to 'it's protocol of Nov 4, 1818 No 444'. So probably murder.

The protocol is certainly somewhere to be found.

Rgds
Ritva W

seele01
22-06-09, 00:38
A HUGE thank you to all three of you for clearifying this situation. Thank you thank you thank you! It truely is a tragic situation, as you all say. I guess that since she was allowed to be buried, it means she was deemed innocent of suicide? Murdered...wow...she was a minor nobleman (frälse)'s daughter, a widow, and had multiple young children at the time of her death. Who would want to murder her?

What is a protokol, though? I definately want to try to find this protocol #444...Is it the church minutes and records (pitäjänkokousten I think...), or actual court records? I have read that court records are sometimes not available to Finnish genealogists, but they apparently are in Porvoo (through the LDS Church). I guess I am asking, what type of record would this protocol be refering to?

You all helped me out tremedously! I spent two hours today hunched over my printout and a Swedish-English dictionary trying to piece it together...to no virtually no avail. I figured out that "protocol" was really "protokol" (the two dashes above and below the letter "c" must be shorthand for the letter "k"). But words like "begrafvas" stumped me...I know begraven meant grave/death, but the "f" was throwing me off.

Anyway, thanks again. My mother (this murdered woman's great great grandaughter) also thanks you all for your help!

Later, everyone.

June Pelo
22-06-09, 01:37
Rob,

In olden times words were spelled various ways, but meant the same thing: the family name Svarvar was also spelled Svarfvar; Kaino/Caino. Virkkala/Wirkkala. Here are places you can find samples of old Swedish writing:
http://www.cyndislist.com/handwrit.htm

http://www.usgennet.org/family/smoot/germanhand/

At one time I found a website with a sample of each letter of the alphabet, but I can't find it now. But Swedish is a Germanic language and I assume they all formed letters the same way. My father went to school in Finland and he always wrote the way he learned in school, and sometimes with lots of flourishes.

As for ptorokoll/protocol, it's a summary or report of court proceedings and they probably are available, but I don't know where to find them. They would be similar to what court reporters record at trials and hearings in our courts.

June Pelo
22-06-09, 01:44
Here is something written in Swedish in the 1600s about my mother's family - Warg. I haven't been able to decipher any of it.. :(

seele01
22-06-09, 04:14
Thanks again for the information, June. I am currently picking through the links on that cyndislist page.

What a fantastic old document! You sure are lucky to have something on your family that is that old. The only thing I can read is the big bold "Year 1626, the 22nd and 23rd, August...." lol. If you dont mind me asking, where did you find such an old document? Did it pass through your family? The oldest thing that passed through my family is from 1818 lol.

kivinen1
22-06-09, 06:38
Here is something written in Swedish in the 1600s about my mother's family - Warg. I haven't been able to decipher any of it.. :(

Certainly there are people here that can or know people that can read old script and come to a best guess scenario.

Have you tried posting this by itself in a separate thread?

Certain a Church historian with good script reading skills could do this.

I would love to know what it says. Probably with two working side by side and writing the best possible choices could come up with something. My old Bible has this same old script, so all one would need is a modern script version to compare words and phrases.

Ritva Winter
22-06-09, 08:36
Rob,

As far as I know this kind of minutes/protocols (domböcker - judgement books) of district courts (häradsrätt/er) ought to be found at the National Archive in Helsinki. Worth a mail there, don't you think?

I've failed to find anything about the history of Porvoo at that time. The Swedish-Russian war ended in 1809 when Finland became a grandduchy under the Russian czar. Were times still effected by the war?

Ritva W

June Pelo
22-06-09, 16:59
A genealogist in Finland sent it to me a long time ago. He said he wasn't skilled in reading that old Swedish. I've shown it to a number of people, but no one could make out more than a word or two. I put in online years ago, but no results. I've seen lots of old Swedish writing, but this is more like medieval writing.

June Pelo
22-06-09, 17:06
Here's an example of old writing on a Christmas card King Karl of Sweden sent to his father - I don't know which King Karl nor the year.

Ritva Winter
22-06-09, 18:50
Here is something written in Swedish in the 1600s about my mother's family - Warg. I haven't been able to decipher any of it.. :(

Beeing an amateur, I think it says something like this:

Dömdes Margeta Mårtensdotter i Ofwan(wäntill?) att bekomme af sin
(swärfader?) Henrik Perzon ett Sölffstoop hwilket fören(em)de Person
hadhe bekommit af (sine?) brödher för att han deres (sak?) uthi Konungens (tienste?)

Was M M in O granted a silverstoup/goblet from her (father in law?) H P, which silverstoup said Person had become from his brothers because he had (?) their (?) and the King's (service?)

Maybe the question here is about distribution of the estate of H P and MM claimes the goblet. The rest is a description of which goblet in question it is since HP probably had several. Further, HP had once became it from his brothers since he had fullfilled the nobleman-duty to serve the King as a knight on behalf of them all - but this is my guess.

The handwriting is called 'German style' and is written slightly differently by every writer.

Rgds
Ritva W

seele01
22-06-09, 19:46
Ritva, thank you again for the help. As for the history of Porvoo in the early 1800s, other than the huge 1808 grand duchy thing, my historical knowlege of Porvoo is limited...books on the subject are all in Swedish. As for the domböcker judgement books of the district courts häradsrätt/er, I am definately sending a letter (or email, if I can the right one) to the Helsinki archives.

Through the mormon church (Latter Day Saints), I have ordered two microfilm that may or may not be the domböcker judgement books. The are -
"Ilmoitusasiat, 1810-1860 Suomi. Kihlakunnanoikeus (Porvoon tuomiokunta)"
and
"Pitäjänkokousten ptk. 1759-1835 v. KI 1-3,6"
I am obviously looking for the protocol number 444. But I think I should email the Helsinki Archives like you suggested...maybe they will be able to help me more than myself hunting and pecking through church minutes / church declarations that might not even have what I am looking for. Anyway, thanks again for the help!

June, the list of first names/patronymic names/farm names about 2/3rds into the document...do they mean anything to you, genealogically? They seem more translatable than the rest of the document...Though its kind of silly since this thread is about me being unable to read early 1800s asking for translation help, I feel like I can read a few of the names in each column...even if its early 1600s Swedish. Maybe I am just fooling myself, though. Heres my attempt, though. Oh and you would definately know more about the local farm names than me, so I am not going to try to attempt to read them lol.

Mar... Person of ___
Matz Mar..lson of ___ (are these first two father and son?)
(An)dreas Jöndson of ___
Pers Simonson of ___
(Marhill?) (D?)anson of ___
Matz Hanson of ___
-------column two-------
.... Andersson from ___ (must be living somewhere else... hes the only one with a "på".)
Hans Jönsen of ___
(is that an "M"?)... Olson of ___
Daniel ......lson of ___
Jans (M?)adson
Oläff ..son of ___

I think Ritva is on to something with the goblet thing. Back then in Finland, a silver goblet would be a cherished treasure. Since you all answered my own translation problem (and subsequent questions) with great clearity and kindness, please feel free to use this thread for help translating this 1600s document. Or make your own forum thread...regardless, I am very interested in getting it translated, maybe the Finlander forum could help you out with it, as guys and gals have so kindly helped me!

I would also try getting a University Swedish language specialist to try to translate it. My aunt went to St. Olaf College in Minnesota, where they have many professors who specialize in Swedish translation. I have kicked the idea around of sending them some 1880s Swedish gothic-script newspaper articles I need translated. This 1600s document truely seems to be in a Germanic and almost middle-ages script. University professors would be your best bet at a fully accurate translation, as I am sure they deal with this stuff all the time in their line of work.

Anyway, sorry for the rambling huge post. I just really like this forum...it has helped me so much in my research, that I want to try to "give back", if that makes any sense lol.

Later everyone!

June Pelo
22-06-09, 22:24
Ritva,

Thanks for your translation. I may have found the answer in some notes. For Henrik Persson Warg, 1560-1635, there's a note: Master of Warg 1607-1635. Had son married to Margeta Mårtensdotter. On 22/23 Aug 1626 the court ordered Henrik to return a silver bowl to Margit Mattsdotter. It belonged to her husband's brother.

I only know of one son Josef for Henrik Persson, so I don't know who is mentioned above, and I don't have anything about a Margit Mattsdotter. There's no further mention of any service to the King, etc. So I guess it will remain a mystery. I think only the bottom part of the page refers to Warg - where the black line is marked.

Ritva Winter
22-06-09, 23:34
Ritva,

Thanks for your translation. I may have found the answer in some notes. For Henrik Persson Warg, 1560-1635, there's a note: Master of Warg 1607-1635. Had son married to Margeta Mårtensdotter. On 22/23 Aug 1626 the court ordered Henrik to return a silver bowl to Margit Mattsdotter. It belonged to her husband's brother.

I only know of one son Josef for Henrik Persson, so I don't know who is mentioned above, and I don't have anything about a Margit Mattsdotter. There's no further mention of any service to the King, etc. So I guess it will remain a mystery. I think only the bottom part of the page refers to Warg - where the black line is marked.

Margeta Mårtensdotter and Margit Mattsdotter is the same person. The different spelling is due to a wish to standardize names - easier to search in databases etc, Martinus-Mårten-Matts.

Names above the text concerning Warg are the judges and laymen of the court (and another paragraph concering another case).

Rgds
Ritva W

June Pelo
10-07-09, 20:04
Came across this article about old handwriting styles:

http://www.genealogia.fi/faq/faq031e.htm

seele01
05-11-11, 19:54
Hello everyone, its been two and a half years since I started this thread. Thank you all again for the help. I have decided to start re-tracing this family enigma (of why Catharina Johansdotter was found hung from a tree).

I have found an archive on the Finnish Digital Archives that I *think* might be what I am looking for.
http://digi.narc.fi/digi/dosearch.ka?sartun=263900.KA
I hope that link works properly.

Unfortunately, it doesn't look like I can access the database, because I dont have access. I poked around, and it looks like you need to have permission or be at the Archives themselves. Does anyone here have access? Or am I looking at the wrong database for the "minutes/protocols (domböcker - judgement books) of district courts (häradsrätt/er)"? (to copy Ritva)

I cannot seem to find any other record database that would fit for this kind of protocol. Fortunately, once I find the proper database, I DO know the actual record it is in..."Nov 4, 1818, record No. 444".

Anyway, thank you all for the help, this is by far the greatest place to get help and share knowledge with likeminded Finnish Genealogists! Have a great day everyone.

-Rob Williams

uspjj
06-11-11, 00:48
Hello Rob,
Maybe a silly question, but did you check the english pages? you have links like: 'Accessing the archives for the first time' ?
/peter

seele01
06-11-11, 18:57
Yes, I have read those pages, and they seem to say that I cannot access court-type information without being at the National Archives and specifying a purpose or need for accessing the records. I guess I am asking if I have found the proper archive for the information on my morfars farmors' hanging. It doesn't look like I will be able to access the info, so I am trying to get some help in identifying the correct record so maybe I can contact a professional genealogist in Helsinki to research the information for me.

Unless I am missing something crucial here...which may be the case?

Jaska Sarell
06-11-11, 22:42
Rob, your link goes to page titled "Väestö-ja kuolleisuustilastot" meaning population and death statistics :confused:
Anyway a set there extends to 1920 thus including material younger than 125 years, the limit for online availability. NA has plans to split this kind of material in the future, but so far they are all handled in complete volumes like the original ones.

:) Jaska