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Denise
09-07-09, 17:14
Looking at Hiski: Would you decide that the Joseph Larsson Kåurila married to Maria Ersd:r Renholdt is the same Joseph Larsson married to Maria Ersd:r Fräki (marriage record below)? I find no marriage of Joseph Larsson to a Maria Ersd:r Renholdt. Or, could this be a transcription error? Now I remember why I gave up researching my father's ancestry 10 years ago. ;)

Thank-you,
Denise

Alatornio - Nedertorneå - christened

Born Christened Village Farm Father Mother Child
*8.11.1790 9.11.1790 Öfv: Voik: (Joseph Larsson Kåurila) (fr: Öfv: Voik Pig Maria Ersd:r Renholdt 25 år Maria (oä:{}+) (does this mean she died?)
*21.11.1792 23.11.1792 Öf: Voikala Joseph Larsson Kourila Maria Ersd:r 27 Maria Elisabeth (+)
*18.12.1793 22.12.1793 Öf: V: Joseph Larss: Kourila Maria Ericsd:r 27 Anna Greta (+)
*23.3.1795 25.3.1795 Öf: Voikl: Joseph Larss: Kourila Maria Ericsd:r 31 Brita Caisa
*7.6.1796 13.6.1796 Öf: Voikala Jos: Larss: Courila Maria Ericsd:r 32 Ella (+)
*15.11.1797 17.11.1797 Öf: Våjkl: Josep Larss: Courila Maria Ericsd:r 33 Eva Maria
*3.2.1799 5.2.1799 Öf: Våjakl: Josep Larss: Courila Maria Ersd:r 35 Joh: Eric
*4.7.1800 6.7.1800 Öfver Wåjakala Joseph Larss: Kourila Maria Ersd:r 39 Anna Brita
*14.2.1802 15.2.1802 Öfver Våjakala Josep Larss: Kourila Maria Ersd:r 38 Joseph
*10.1.1804 12.1.1804 Öfver Våjakala Josep Larss: Kourila Maria Ersd:r 40 Eva
*1.1.1807 3.1.1807 Öfv: Våjakal: Josep Larss: Kourila Maria Ericsd:r 43 Johan Henric


:) and then the marriage of Joseph Larsson Kourila:

Alatornio - Nedertorneå - married
Announc. Married Village Farm Man Wife Village Farm
*3.4.1791 12.4.1791 Ö: Voikala Usv: Jos: Larss: Kourila P: Maria Er:d:r Fräki Karungi

seele01
09-07-09, 18:38
The "oä" next to the first child's record means the child was illegitimate. Since the child wasn't given a name, I think it must have been a stillborn or died shortly theirafter. Being illegitimate, it means that the mother and father were living (or at least copulating) together without being married.

Looking at the dates, it looks like they were sleeping together, had an illegit child that died, continued on doing that untill around Feb 1792, realised she was pregnant again, and decided to get married. By that time, however, Maria had either left the Fräki villiage/Karungi farm and was living on the Renholdt farm, or she had just taken up a last name (Renholdt) and disregarded her previous farmname of Fräki.

I could be wrong, though. I am still a newbie at all of this.

Denise
09-07-09, 19:06
Hi Rob,
Got a clue what the "brackets and +" alongside the oä mean? Sorry, I don't know how to make the brackets on the computer...:o Could there have been a Maria Ersdr Renholdt and they mean she died also? Just a thought???

Thank-you for your educated opinion! :D

Best Regards,
Denise

seele01
09-07-09, 19:12
I honestly have no idea what they mean...sorry! If possible, I would goto the local mormon church and order the death record microfilm itself, and compare. Maybe the brackets will make more sense then? Or can someone else here help? Anyway, hope you figure it out... Later!

Karen Norwillo
09-07-09, 20:49
Denise,
I agree that they married after the birth of that first child that died. Why the name change for Maria, I don't know. I found another marriage for her after Josef Larsson Courila died 22.10.1808 in Ö Våjak gif.Bond Josef Larss. Courila lungs 49 yrs.
18.3.1810 Mattila sk.b enk. Olof Johans. Pietilä and B.Enk Maria Ehrsdotter Courila of Öf. Vajakl.
20.3.1827 Öf. Vojak Olof Johanss. Holms hust Maria Ehrsdotter.
They sure did change names alot. I woulf probably guess moving from place to place

June Pelo
09-07-09, 21:30
*8.11.1790 9.11.1790 Öfv: Voik: (Joseph Larsson Kåurila) (fr: Öfv: Voik Pig Maria Ersd:r Renholdt 25 år Maria (oä:{}+) (does this mean she died?) = * indicates born and + means died. So this couple had an illegitimate baby Maria born and died in 1790. They then married in 1791 and had 10 more children, 3 of whom died. Maria Eriksdotter was 25 when her first child was born and 43 when the last child was born.

When Joseph and Maria married she is shown as: P: Maria Er:d:r Fräki Karungi
I would assume that meant she was maid Maria Eriksdotter, living on Fräki farm in Karungi (Swedish) or Karunki (Finnish). Names changed when they moved to another farm, so maybe there was a farm Renholdt, but it's a strange name for a farm, I think.

Denise, the bracket symbols are on your keyboard - look in the row next to the letter P.

Karen Norwillo
09-07-09, 22:45
Denise,
On FFHA Alatornio, I found the Renholdt family in 1780 and in 1791, the same family on the Fräki farm, all in Ö Våjak village. Judging by age of Maria at that 1st birth, she was born 1764-65. On the birth records a Maria was born 11 March 1764 in Ö Våjak village to the same parents found on those household rolls. She was the only Maria born to an Erik that year. Hope these attachments come through ok.
Karen

Karen Norwillo
10-07-09, 02:23
Denise,
Here's the images from FFHA church books in Alatornio. I cropped them to save space. First child, both marriages.
Karen

kivinen1
10-07-09, 05:31
could the Renholdt be some sort of occupational or social status name?

ren is reindeer depending on when used.

ren is also like a headlands.

Just a thought...

I have family in that same area, and the notes on them state Porolappalainen or Reindeer Laplander.

Denise
10-07-09, 14:40
Hi June,
{{{}}}} Got it! :p Thought they just did this [[]] ;) and I always use () :D

Just didn't know if the different brackets meant something...
In my father's ancestry there are Renholdt-Renholdt names too. And a thought crossed my mind that Courila-Kourila-Kåurila could also be Kourilehto and I have both names in the ancestry. Now I am getting confused, because many of the Fräki's later became Kourilehto in my father's lineage. And the very first Fräki ( one of my great grandfathers in 1700's) I had was named Varsama. Now I am finding a Fräki, changed to Kourilehto, changed to Flygare Kourilehto in Sweden. I know Flygare has something to do with flying man, pilot, aeronaut but in the 1700-1800's what were they flying? My husband said it could have been hot air balloons (they were used in the Civil War here).I was told at one point the name Fräki was a soldier's name but now I find it has something to do with being an oarsman, a frigate, and various other spellings of the word in Finnish and Swedish. I don't know if they were Kven, Sami, Lappi's, Swedes, Finns, as I am finding that everytime I google something I come up with different sites. One site called Matarengi looks promising but I can't read it or figure out how to contact someone on the site. The last time I had such a challenge was on my mother's paternal grandmother's side, and it turned out to be a very royal lineage! I love challenges but this one is a bit much...:(

Best Regards,
Denise

Denise
10-07-09, 14:52
Hi Karen,
You are awesome. Thank-you for all the time spent researching for me. I was so frustrated and confused yesterday that I actually went outside and helped my husband redo our fieldstone pond in our backyard; manual labor takes the frustration away! I also thought of an alcoholic beverage at 10 a.m. but knew that wasn't the answer! :D
I'll check out the images you sent, and I truly appreciate the time it took you to go through all of those. I think sometimes one gets so lost when in the middle of their own research that another pair of eyes that aren't frustrated are just the answer.

Thank-you so much, cuz, :)
Best Regards,
Denise

Denise
10-07-09, 15:02
Hi Ilmari,
Thank-you for the information on the Renholt/Renholdt name. Did you have difficulty with your research in that area? My father always said there was Swede in his background, and I am finding that is true, but bouncing back and forth between Sweden and Finland and the islands in the middle are a bit overwhelming. I was told one of our Fräki's "lost the island in a card game." Wonder if that one is true? I wouldn't even know where to look for that answer.
Hiski has been a great help, but this ancestry is beyond just those records. I've put queries on some Swedish sites, but no answers yet...

Thank-you,
Best Regards,
Denise

Denise
10-07-09, 15:17
Hi,
I also have Fräki's who then used the names Mörtberg, Kourilehto, Koskenranta, etc. I guess I haven't found all the other names yet! Here are just a few examples. No wonder I'm confused...

Denise


Alatornio - Nedertorneå - christened

* Father's last name: FRÄCK => Fräcki, Fräcki eller Pångåranda

Alatornio - Nedertorneå - christened

* Father's last name: FRÄKI => Fräki, Fräki l: Vuoti, Fräki eller Mämmioja, Fräki eller Koskenranta, Fräki ell: Perätalo

Father's last name: KOURILEHTO => Kourilehto, Kourilehto ell: Spelman, Kourilehto el: Ajahuhta, Kourilehto el: Pänttäjä

Ylitornio - Övertorneå - christened

* Father's last name: VANHAINEN => Wanhainen, Vanhainen el. Heikinmikko, Wanhainen el. Mörtberg, Wanhainen, f:d Korpi

Karen Norwillo
10-07-09, 15:36
Denise,
I found the birth of Maria's second husband and his death. It would appear he came from a military family. 12.10.1777 Kuckoila, Sold. Johan Johs. Holm and Ella or Elsa Olofsdr. 21, Olof
20.2.1828 Ö Vojack nådehjon Olof Johanss. Holm, slag, 51. He died an almsman, depending on the charity of others.
His first marriage was 11.11.1804 Kukkola Usv Olof Johans. Holm and P. Anna Catharine Sam:dr Erkijuntti, Ö Våjakl. Anna was from #9 Erkijuntti farm.
I love the various spellings of Öfvre Wojakkola, the earliest spelling I found.
I wonder where the Pietilä came from. There is a farm in Mattila village. Maybe that's where he was when he married Maria in 1810.

Denise
10-07-09, 16:07
Hi Karen,
It appears you are enjoying the research of this family. Do you want them? :D
You are wonderful...and I truly appreciate all the time you have spent researching for me. The name changes are quite interesting, aren't they?

Thank-you cousin Karen,
Best Regards,
Denise

June Pelo
10-07-09, 16:21
Denise:


..Kourilehto, changed to Flygare Kourilehto in Sweden = flygare could also mean fled. Maybe they had to flee Finland to Sweden..

Denise
10-07-09, 17:58
Hi June,
That's an interesting thought. I know the Russian's burned many of the villages and the people ran and hid in the forests to protect themselves.

Thank-you,
Denise

Karen Norwillo
10-07-09, 18:44
Maybe that's a good idea. I'll send you one of my "brick walls" and see how you make out. Just kidding. I just love a challenge. Unfortunately, most of my "headaches" are on my husband's Polish and Lithuanian roots. We are so lucky to have these excellent records available to us. Nothing like that in those two countries, unless you want to pay "big bucks" and wait 1-2 years.

Denise
10-07-09, 19:17
Oh Karen,
I'm working on my husband's English and Irish side. I ordered from LDS microfiche and they should be here any day now. I hardly work on his family and I can tell he gets jealous when I make headway on mine. I'm trying to teach him to do it himself, but the names are Foster and Mcnamara and very common first names such as John! Have you checked with your local family search to order film?

Thanks again,
Denise

June Pelo
10-07-09, 19:34
[QUOTE That's an interesting thought. I know the Russian's burned many of the villages and the people ran and hid in the forests to protect themselves.

Depending on the time period, the Russians used Finland as a battleground during the Great Northern War, known in Finland as the Great Wrath, or Stora Ofreden. The period was from 1700-1721. You can read some of it here:

http://countrystudies.us/finland/9.htm

Karen Norwillo
11-07-09, 00:34
The LDS has very little on film for those two countries except Jewish records. The records are not digitalized for the most part, the priests are very reluctant to allow copying of existing records and many records were destroyed in the 2 WW's. I did find some in Lithuania, which I received a few years ago. I took almost a year and $400. It was worth it, but I had some concrete facts to work with at that time. I don't have those for my mother-in-law's side. Not to mention their alphabet and nothing is spelled like it sounds. That wall may just be unbreachable.