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Margaret B
02-11-10, 12:24
Hi there!

I am researching my husband's family, which emigrated to northern Norway from Ii in 1878. I have built up quite a good overview of the Paso family from Ii/Kiiminki/Haukipudas going back to 1680. Other branches of the family I have not had much success with include the Paaso family of Tyrnävä and the Alatalo family of Ii (starting with Caisa Maria Alatalo, b. 1863 or thereabouts, father's name given as Petter/Pehr).

If there is anyone out there researching the same families, I would be glad to share what I know.

Best regards,

Margaret B

June Pelo
02-11-10, 17:34
HisKi has a number of these names but data doesn't extend beyond ca 1850. I also saw some of the names in the Talko database, but didn't see the names you are looking for.

Margaret B
02-11-10, 17:56
Thanks for replying to my post. As a complete novice on this site I am unfamiliar with the Talko database. What is it and how can I access it.

Regards,

Margaret B

June Pelo
02-11-10, 21:39
It's a database composed of data from GedComs submitted by Finlander members who receive a password before they can search the database. You can read about Talko here:
http://finlander.genealogia.fi/sfhswiki/index.php/The_Talko_Project

Snoberg
03-04-11, 05:28
Hi Margaret B,

I am new to the forum, and still trying to find my way around this new-fangled format. As a Norsk-Finn, or Kvaen, you might have better luck searching in Norwegian records using a patronymic. Different countries adopted chosen surnames, at different times. I think Finns were 'ahead of the curve' when it came to choosing a consistent surname, which was more like an address of the farm on which they were living. If they moved, their name changed.
My family emigrated from Tornio to Troms, Norway at a time when the Norwegian government was still focused on using patronymics.
A quick look at both the Digitalarkivet and the NHDC census records did not turn up records for either the names Paso (Paaso) or Alatalo. If you know the region in Norway (fylke) in which they settled, and send me a message, I can try to give you some pointers.

Best wishes.
Snoberg

Tapio Rautio
03-04-11, 11:17
Hi!

This family moves from Ii to Inari 09.04.1887, with wife 4 sons and 3 daughters.

http://www.sukuhistoria.fi/sshy/kirjat/Kirkonkirjat/ii/rippikirja_1870-1879_mko18-43/545.htm
Per Persson Kämärä 18.11.1838 wife Kanniala Kaisa Staffansdr. 25.02.1840.

http://www.sukuhistoria.fi/sshy/kirjat/Kirkonkirjat/ii/rippikirja_1860-1869_ik255/139.htm
Here in the previous book, they are called Kämärä/Alatalo.


:)


Tapio

Tapio Rautio
03-04-11, 11:46
Kesäkuu 10, June 10th 1887 in Inari.

No more records online from Inari, for a follow-up on this family.


Tapio

Tapio Rautio
03-04-11, 12:07
This could be something for Snoberg to work with?
The book of children in Ii 1886-1886:
http://www.sukuhistoria.fi/sshy/kirjat/Kirkonkirjat/ii/lastenkirja_1886-1886_mko298-305/170.htm

A note of a son, Juho Eerik, born 1880 in Ruija.

:)

Tapio

Snoberg
03-04-11, 18:34
Finns (Kvaen) in Norway

Margaret, a little deeper digging in the Digitalarkivet Census for 1900, produced two possible family ties who used the name Palo. One family in Lyngen in Troms, and the other in Nord-Varanger in Finmark. Do the following names appear to fit into your husband's family tree?
1900-telling for 1938 Lyngen
#1322 Arvet Henrickson PALO f. 1873, in Sverige (keep in mind that the country borders and rule was not consistent)
#1323 Trine Vilhelmina Mikkelsdatter f. 1871
#1324 Villam Meier Arvetson f. 1897
#1325 Emil Arvetson f. 11099, which I assume to mean he was born October 1, 1899.
1900-telling for 2029 Nord-Varanger
#1058 Jacob Palo f. 1844, in Finland
#1059 Mathilde Hanssen f. 1853
#1060 Hans Jacobsen f. 1875
#1061 Abiel Jacobsen f. 1876 Vadsø
#1062 Leonore Jacobsen f. 1881
There is a little more info. there to be gleaned. Send me a private message, and I can tell you how to get to the pages showing the above persons.
Disclaimer: I am far from an expert; and the experience I do have in this region, is only from the Norwegian side of the border.
Happy digging. :-)
Snoberg

Snoberg
03-04-11, 23:25
Must have been half asleep...

Margaret B, Sorry for the wild goose chase. Looks like I must have checked Palo when I searched last night. There were 2 found by the name of Pasop, in Spydeberg in Østfold, but no Paso or Paaso anywhere. The two 'found' are probably not the ones you seek.
However, there IS an 88 year old widdower by the name of Henrik Henriksen Alatala born in Finland in 1812, living in Sor-Varanger. He does not appear to be related to any of the four others living in that particular household.
It could be that some of your family members no longer were using the names they used in Finland, or, they were not in Norway, at least, not in 1900. Searching by patronymic names might work, but there will be a lot more names to wade through.
For anyone who wants to search for relatives in the Norwegian census(i), I am working on a 'how to search for Finns in the Norwegian census' page that can be downloaded as a .doc. I will be sure to proof read it first; while I'm awake. ;-) There is too much information to fit in one of these boxes, so if you would like a copy, send me a personal message with your address, and I will email it to you. I am also preparing a 'how to' for a map resource by Friis from 1861 that shows the location of Finnish, Sami, and Norwegian settlers throughout Finmark. It not only shows where they lived, but what languages they spoke, as well as the kind of dwelling they lived in.
Hope this is of some help. :-)
Snoberg

Hasse
03-04-11, 23:59
For anyone who wants to search for relatives in the Norwegian census(i), I am working on a 'how to search for Finns in the Norwegian census' page that can be downloaded as a .doc. I will be sure to proof read it first; while I'm awake. ;-) There is too much information to fit in one of these boxes, so if you would like a copy, send me a personal message with your address, and I will email it to you. I am also preparing a 'how to' for a map resource by Friis from 1861 that shows the location of Finnish, Sami, and Norwegian settlers throughout Finmark. It not only shows where they lived, but what languages they spoke, as well as the kind of dwelling they lived in.
Hope this is of some help. :-)
Snoberg

If you are interested we could put the document into an article here on this website. If you have a good instruction how to look for persons in Norwegian archives this website would of course be interested. If so, send me the document to sfhs[at]e-brev.nu

Addition: the article is now here

/Hasse

Margaret B
05-04-11, 15:34
Many thanks for helping me with this. The family seemed very possible until I looked more closely at the dates. My Maria Kaisa Alatalo b. +/-1863 and confirmed in Ii, was married in Skallelv near Vadsø, Norway, in 1883. So I don't think it can be her. Once again, thanks for taking the time to help me. Best regards, M

Tapio Rautio
05-04-11, 21:45
Ok, this is a tricky one.

Was Caisa Maria married to Lars Pauna, from Kemijärvi?

Sadly i can´t see any matching family moving out from Ii 1878 or nearby
years.

In the attachment it´s marriage nr. 7.


Tapio

Margaret B
06-04-11, 11:12
Yes, this is the one. She may have been born outside Ii, but confirmed there at some point. There's quite an age difference between her and her husband. Could her date of birth be wrong? Another thought I had was that the Norwegian transcribing her name at her wedding misheard and wrote Alatalo when it should have been Ylitalo or some other variant. Any suggestions? In later censuses she calls herself "Alladalo". Margaret B

Snoberg
06-04-11, 17:42
Hi Margaret B,
You wrote: "Another thought I had was that the Norwegian transcribing her name at her wedding misheard and wrote Alatalo when it should have been Ylitalo or some other variant. Any suggestions?"
Yes. Hasse has put a link to a page that I wrote about how to search for Finns in the Norwegian Census records. Page down to his posting on 03.04.11 at 13:59 and click where it says "Addition: the article is now here". (Thank you, Hasse. :-) )
Spelling was not standardized; and it was greatly influenced by the background of the person weilding the pen; and later, by the level of ability of the transcriber trying to read that old writing!
Margaret, Look in your personal message folder. A couple days ago, I posted a message about how to find 13 members of a family named Paso who were living in Skalelv in 1910. I also included a link to a map drawn by Friis in 1861, that shows where Skalelv is.
Snoberg

Margaret B
07-04-11, 10:49
Tapio,
With reference to the family who moved to Inari in 1887. I've just checked the 1910 Norwegian census and the Maria Caisa Alatalo that I'm looking for is registered with the birth date 13.04.1863. This is the same date of birth as the Maria Caisa Pehrsdatter Kämärä (Alatalo) listed in the thumbnail picture you posted of the family's move to Inari. I do not know any Finnish and so am unable to understand what the various columns on the page refer to. However, I did notice that beside Maria Caisa's entry on the Inari form, next to the right-hand column there are the letters "l.k". Would you know what this stands for? There are also a couple of words beside the entry for Amanda (the same?). Could Pehr Kämärä simply have listed all his children whether they were actually living at home or not? At this point Maria Caisa had been married in Norway for a number of years (1883), already had one son and was heavily pregnant with a second. All the children are recorded as being born in Norway so, we know for certain she was not living in Finland at the time. A further indication that this might be the right woman is that two of her children have the same name as the Kämärä siblings: Amanda and August. It would be great if this Maria Caisa was the one I've been looking for, but it does seem odd that she used a name abandoned by her father years before. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on this. Regards, Margaret B

Tapio Rautio
07-04-11, 13:48
Hi Margaret!

This is odd, as You say..

l.k. is for lasten kirja, the book of children. To bad those are not online. It is also strange that the referred pages are two
different ones, 141 and 148?

This is my earlier link to the l.k. in Ii:
http://www.sukuhistoria.fi/sshy/kirjat/Kirkonkirjat/ii/lastenkirja_1886-1886_mko298-305/170.htm

There You can see that all have the birthplace Tannila willage in Ii, exept the youngest one Juho Eerik 10/? 1880 Ruija.

Wikipedia says, Ruija is the finnish name of Finnmark.


Confusing

:)

Tapio

Tapio Rautio
07-04-11, 15:02
Ok, now i see, 141 is the page in the book of children and 148 is the page of the church book/rippikirja.

:)

Tapio

Tapio Rautio
07-04-11, 15:19
Now on then, there is some luck in these searches. :)

This was online for members in the http://www.sukuhistoria.fi/sshy/index_eng.htm

The title is : Inari saamelaisten-perherekisteri, 1730-1900/ The register of Inari-Sami families.

It seems to include also non Sami families. :)



Tapio

Tapio Rautio
07-04-11, 23:49
Now AND then. :)

Margaret B
08-04-11, 10:47
Tapio,

This is absolutely fantastic! Thank you so much for taking the trouble to help me with this. I really appreciate it. Am I right in thinking that the whole family (presumably without Maria Kaisa) moved to the Vayda-Guba peninsular in 1892? I googled "Kämärä and Alatalo" yesterday in an attempt to verify Maria Kaisa's identity myself, and the following entry popped up for her sister Amanda. She gives her surname as Alatalo here: http://www.genealogia.fi/emi/emi72us.htm. So I was tending towards concluding that this is the right family. But your final piece of evidence eliminates all doubts!

Looking at the map, the family in Russia could almost have waved to Maria Kaisa in Skallelv, Norway. The intriguing question now is what happened to the family in Russia when the revolution came? Interestingly, there is a family with the surname Hirsivaara currently living in Vadsø. They weren’t in the 1910 census, so they may have come either after the Russian Revolution or during the upheaval of the winter war. Or they might not be related at all.

My next problem is to find out something about another missing wife. Margrethe Marie Paaso born +/- 1858 and confirmed in Tyrnävä. She may or may not have been born there. Anyway, she eventually married my husband’s great grandfather Henrik Paso (Basso) in Skallelv in 1885. In her marriage records she gives her father’s name as Henrik. The family story is that Henrik Paso returned to Ii to bring back a wife. So at some point just before 1885 Margrethe Maria (also known as Maia) must have been living in Ii. It is my understanding that the records for Tyrnävä are badly damaged and incomplete. But do you think there is any chance of finding her in the records for Ii which are not publicly available?

Best regards, Margaret B

Tapio Rautio
10-04-11, 11:38
Hi Margaret.

The marriage in Norway 1885 says Margrethe Marie was born in Ii in 1860, i looked for
her in Ii and in Tyrnävä, but with no results.

I wish we could find the exact birthdate for her, in the Norwegian records.


Tapio

Snoberg
11-04-11, 01:59
Margaret, I have not found Margrethe Maria in the digitized record images, yet, but I did find Amanda Alatalo in Vadsø / Vadsø by: 1885-1895, Ministerialbok Amanda is recorded as bride in couple #14, on pg. 131, on 14/10/1886, in Vadsø. Looks like her birth date might be: 1/11/67, and she was confirmed at Vadsø on 24/2/84.
Success! Found Margrethe Maria!
Margrethe Maria Paaso appears in a different 'Black Book' than Amanda. Vadsø / Landsoknet: 1881-1917, Ministerialbok She is in couple #17, on pg. 234, and was married on 2/10/85, but it only shows 1860 for a birth date. Confirmed in Vadsø on 24/2/84.
I have saved the images as PDFs. Don't know how to attach something like that here, so if you send me a personal message with your email address, I can attach them to an email.
Snoberg :-)

Margaret B
11-04-11, 10:25
Snoberg,
Thanks for your help with the Amanda Alatalo records. I've found them myself from your excellent directions. This confirms that the family had moved form Ii to Vadsø before moving back to Finland (Inari) in 1887 and then on to Russia (Murmansk) in 1892. Possibly prompted by the fact that Amanda's husband was from the area.

Tapio,
In the 1910 Norwegian census Margrethe Marie Paaso gives her birthdate as 24.08.1860. There seems to have been some muddle with her marriage records, but I'm pretty sure the clerk simply swapped the details for Margrethe and Henrik, and Margrethe was confirmed in Tyrnävä.

Again, thanks to both of you for your help. Regards, Margaret B

Harjun Reidari
09-05-11, 12:09
Tapio,

This is absolutely fantastic! Thank you so much for taking the trouble to help me with this. I really appreciate it. Am I right in thinking that the whole family (presumably without Maria Kaisa) moved to the Vayda-Guba peninsular in 1892? I googled "Kämärä and Alatalo" yesterday in an attempt to verify Maria Kaisa's identity myself, and the following entry popped up for her sister Amanda. She gives her surname as Alatalo here: http://www.genealogia.fi/emi/emi72us.htm. So I was tending towards concluding that this is the right family. But your final piece of evidence eliminates all doubts!

Looking at the map, the family in Russia could almost have waved to Maria Kaisa in Skallelv, Norway. The intriguing question now is what happened to the family in Russia when the revolution came? Interestingly, there is a family with the surname Hirsivaara currently living in Vadsø. They weren’t in the 1910 census, so they may have come either after the Russian Revolution or during the upheaval of the winter war. Or they might not be related at all.

My next problem is to find out something about another missing wife. Margrethe Marie Paaso born +/- 1858 and confirmed in Tyrnävä. She may or may not have been born there. Anyway, she eventually married my husband’s great grandfather Henrik Paso (Basso) in Skallelv in 1885. In her marriage records she gives her father’s name as Henrik. The family story is that Henrik Paso returned to Ii to bring back a wife. So at some point just before 1885 Margrethe Maria (also known as Maia) must have been living in Ii. It is my understanding that the records for Tyrnävä are badly damaged and incomplete. But do you think there is any chance of finding her in the records for Ii which are not publicly available?

Best regards, Margaret B


Margrethe Marie Paaso and Henrik Basso are my great-great grandparents!