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granskare
07-01-04, 22:28
I was at Swenson today doing searches and found in Faith Lutheran of Sault Ste Marie, Michigan [Swenson # S17-3] the following place name which didn't seem to fit Finland:
Burtton Socken which was where a guy named Johannes Mattson was born on 5-23-1875.
Peter lax Socken seems to be an ok town name and this was where his wife, Vänla [spelling] Carolina Mattson was born on 1-6-1878.
The names of the ppl aren't particular to my question about Burtton Socken but as long as I was here, I might as well give the particulars in the event somebody looking for them stumbles across this posting.
Chuck

Jaska Sarell
07-01-04, 23:04
Sounds like:
Pörtom (Fi Pirttikylä)
Petalax (Fi Petolahti)

:) Jaska

granskare
07-01-04, 23:27
That was a fast fast response and thanks for the actual names of those 2 places.
So it must have been a Finnish speaker who gave those names to the church secretary because the P is voiced and so sounds more like the english B.

I had a situation like that a few years back. I was going to make a presentation about postcards showing the "kantele". So I called the club secretary and told her and in the next bulletin, I learned that I was going to speak about "gondolas" :)

Chuck

Hasse
08-01-04, 07:02
Originally posted by granskare
So it must have been a Finnish speaker who gave those names to the church secretary because the P is voiced and so sounds more like the english B.
I would instead say that the "speaker" was a person talking his/her own Swedish dialect. If you pronounce Pörtöm and Petalax with, for example, a Pörtom dialect it isn't hard to see why the clerck wrote it down in this manner.The place name Pörtom is for example pronounced with a very passive almost silent P, with a double t which easily in an English-speakers ear transcribes to "Burtton", "Burttom".

In Finnish "B" is too easily pronounced/written as a "P" and in day-to-day speach people even accentuate that "her name was Berta with a soft B" to clarify the spelling of a name.

Not the other way around.

granskare
08-01-04, 19:42
Hi Hasse,
You are more familiar of course with this so I accept what you say - I don't have any familiarity with that local Swedish dialect but I do have a cd made up by a couple kids in jeppis and for one song, I was sure it was using Finnish words but couldn't quite understand them. And of course the speaker had to be a Swedish speaker because a Finnish speaker would have used the Finnish version of the town name which I should have thought about first.
I believe that in Finland, Swedish must be is heavily affected by the Finnish language. There is a website from Sweden which took samples of Swedish from Ostrobothnia which I found here at sfhs :) so I shall listen again and maybe I will find something in that.
Chuck

sune
09-01-04, 09:24
The youth in Österbotten talks a slang that contains dialect and Finnish words. So it is possible that the cd is not in "pure" dialect but in dialectal slang.

The Finnish speaking youth in Jakobstad also calls their hometown "Jeppis".

There are many different Swedish dialect in Österbotten. Sometimes it can be diffucult for a person in the Jakobstad-Karleby region to understand a person from the southern parts.

In Kronoby there are at least five distinct dialects: Kronoby, Nedervertil, Terjärv, Småbönders and Norrby. But Hasse should know more about that.

Visit this (http://susning.nu/%D6sterbottniska) if you want to get an idea of what the different dialects in Österbotten are like.

By the way. The dialects have also got influences from English through returning emigrants. The most known are "musha" (moonshine, i.e illegally homemade alcohol) and "demit" (damage) which is used when somenone does a prank, "Nu ska ni inte gör na demit" = "Don't do any pranks".

Sune

granskare
09-01-04, 18:47
I was able to translate most of the page at the indicated url,
http://susning.nu/%D6sterbottniska
and then I went to this page from a link
http://swedia.ling.umu.se/

That's where the webmaster of that Swedish place stopped me. I was totally unable to copy the text to put into my translation software. It was written to block copy/paste routines. So why did that webmaster do that?

I have noticed other pages in other languages and other topics, including English language pages, which have done the same thing.

Chuck

Gita Wiklund
09-01-04, 20:06
I was totally unable to copy the text to put into my translation software. It was written to block copy/paste routines. So why did that webmaster do that?

The text is part of an image, and that´s why you can´t copy the text. You can copy and paste the image, the text will be stuck on the background, but then of course you can´t translate it. Why have they done this? I think it´s absurd. You should send them an e-mail and tell them about your problem and ask them why they´ve chosen to present it like this.
Perhaps they are very worried that someone might steal their texts and somewhere present it as their own work "of art".

Hasse
09-01-04, 20:34
Originally posted by Gita Wiklund
The text is part of an image, ...Why have they done this? I think it´s absurd.

In fact this is not at all unusual. The language behind all these webpages (HTML) is such that every now and then it is much easier/faster to assemble a page from images than having them made up of text with typographical properties. If you make up a page from images you're sure of how it will look on different platforms, browser software and installed font collections in each end-user computer. Using text elements can sometime give unexpected results.

I understand your point - this regrettably disables the use of translation software.

Gita Wiklund
09-01-04, 20:59
Hasse,

I´m aware of the problems in this area that has been discussed for a long time, and development is necessary. But this and some other modern solutions have different kinds of side effects for the user that I´m not very pleased with. I´m sorry that the users perspective seldom is considered enough. Well, at least the creative and interactive minded users perspectives.

granskare
09-01-04, 23:35
Aha! Images so that's why no text highlighting.
I had thought somehow it was made so that people could not copy and past text.
So technology takes a few steps back :(
Thanks, Hasse, for the explanation about images.
Perhaps pages which deal with the topic of languages might reconsider making their sites more user friendly:)
Chuck