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Boomer
12-03-11, 23:48
Have a couple of questions.

I've got Mat Erving shown as the father of Michael Matsson Erving on the Rippikirja for Laihia for the years 1852-1858. His wife is listed as Lisa Andersdotter. Looking at the oldest child, the birth year is 1841. I do a search on Hiski for Mat and Lisa and I get Mathias Annason Erving marrying Lisa Andersdotter Torsti on 18 Oct 1840 at Torstila, Laihia, Finland. Seems to be a match as the only other match was almost 75 years earlier. The linked vihityt on Hiski clearly shows that the name is Annason. My further search for a birth date for Mathias Annason Erving gets no responses. I'm wondering why he has a patronymic (or to possibly coin a new word, matronymic) name of possibly his mother. Was he illegitimate (and therefore his parentage is not listed) or did his father die before hew was born or is it a alternate naming convention?

Question 2

I'll bet this has been answered before but, I tried a search of the site and a search in the dictionary but have come up empty. What does the abbreviation Drg.ungk. mean? Particularly the ungk portion.

Many Thanks,

Jim

June Pelo
13-03-11, 02:02
Have a couple of questions.

I've got Mat Erving shown as the father of Michael Matsson Erving on the Rippikirja for Laihia for the years 1852-1858. His wife is listed as Lisa Andersdotter. Looking at the oldest child, the birth year is 1841. I do a search on Hiski for Mat and Lisa and I get Mathias Annason Erving marrying Lisa Andersdotter Torsti on 18 Oct 1840 at Torstila, Laihia, Finland. Seems to be a match as the only other match was almost 75 years earlier. The linked vihityt on Hiski clearly shows that the name is Annason. My further search for a birth date for Mathias Annason Erving gets no responses. I'm wondering why he has a patronymic (or to possibly coin a new word, matronymic) name of possibly his mother. Was he illegitimate (and therefore his parentage is not listed) or did his father die before hew was born or is it a alternate naming convention?

Question 2

I'll bet this has been answered before but, I tried a search of the site and a search in the dictionary but have come up empty. What does the abbreviation Drg.ungk. mean? Particularly the ungk portion.

Many Thanks,

Jim

Jim,

yugk. means bachelor = young karl drg. = farmhand

matronymic is a word - referring to the mother. Usually illigitimate children carry a matronymic name instead of a patronymic. In some instances the man acknowledges he is the father of an illegitimate child and his name is used as a patronymic.


In Laiha there is a Matts Mattsson Erfving and Anna Michelsdotter who had 8 children between 1806-1827, when Anna was 42.

RE: Matts Annasson - in Nivala there is an Anna Maria Michelsdotter Wilama with Matts oa, b. 16 Oct 1818.

In Aura, there is an Anna Michelsdotter, age 24, with son mathias oa, b. 5 Jan 1840 on Alitalo farm.

In Laiha there is a Matts Mattsson Erfving and Anna Michelsdotter had a son Mathias, b. 19 Jul 1818 on Yrjälä farm.

Is it possible that Anna went to another parish and had Matts, b. 1840?

I found a marriage in Laiha for Matts Mattsson Råmen and Anna Michelsdotter Erving, widow, on 2 Aug 1829. It could be that Matts Mattsson took his wife's name at marriage, as was the practice at that time, especially if he lived on her property.

I had several theories about Matts Annasson, but when I tried to follow through, I couldn't come up with an answer. I found several men named Matts Mattsson Erfving/Erving. One married to Anna Mickelsdotter and another married to Maria Johansdotter in 1802 Found an Anna Mickelsdotter Erving, widow, who married 1829 to Matts Mattsson Råmen (above).

Guess none of this makes sense...

June

Boomer
13-03-11, 04:01
June,

You learn something new everyday.... I took some Russian in college so I was familiar with the patronymic naming but had not heard of the matronymic. :)
I had a hunch that Mathias was possibly illigitimate. I guess it would depend on the mother as to whether the birth was recorded or not. One thing I neglected to put in my original post was that the Rippikirja showed Mathias's birth year as 1809. That eliminated most of your suggestions....sorry.:o


In Laiha there is a Matts Mattsson Erfving and Anna Michelsdotter who had 8 children between 1806-1827, when Anna was 42.
That's a possibility... I'll pursue that.

Matts Mattsson 's seem to be pretty common. I 've run into a bunch of Anders Andersson 's too.

I seem to have had fairly good luck with Lisa's line. So far I think I have fairly solid candidates for her ancestry back 3 generations on her fathers side and 2 generations on her mother's side. Now to solidify the documentation....hardest part.

Thanks so much for your time looking up Mat.

Jim

Tapio Rautio
13-03-11, 10:01
June and Jim,

the birthday changes to the wrong year (1809) for Mats.

Hiski :

Laihia - Laihela - baptised


Syntynyt Kastettu Kylä Talo Isä Äiti Lapsi

12.6.1812 14.6.1812 Yrjälä by Anna Jac.dr Tråcki 25-30 Matts (oä.)

alkup - ILISÄ: Pat. ignotus




The original:
http://www.sukuhistoria.fi/sshy/kirjat/Kirkonkirjat/laihia/syntyneet_1808-1830_uk103/41.htm

Matts with his mother Anna Jacobsdr 01.01.1785-21.10.1844, wife Lisa Andersdr Torsti 25.07.1819
and two sons Henrik 1841, Matts 1842.
http://www.sukuhistoria.fi/sshy/kirjat/Kirkonkirjat/laihia/rippikirja_1837-1843_uk99/117.htm


:)

Tapio

Tapio Rautio
13-03-11, 10:38
Why does Mats Annasson use the name Erving?

He is never living at that farm only at Trocki and Ipponen nr.5 where both he and his wife
die in 1868.
http://www.sukuhistoria.fi/sshy/kirjat/Kirkonkirjat/laihia/rippikirja_1867-1874_mko192-214/309.htm

My guess would be, that the unknown father was from Erving, but who he was, can be hard to find out...


Tapio

June Pelo
13-03-11, 15:18
Glad you figured that out, Tapio.

Boomer
13-03-11, 20:09
June, Tapio,

Took me a while to digest all of that. So..... the Erving name was possibly selected as the family name based upon the unknown fathers name. I'll try to check how many Ervings were born at Trocki. Might be able to narrow the list of perpetrators.

It seems that the case for Anna Jacobsdr as his mother is strong. The only problem I see is that Mat's birth year seems to change. The Rippikirja, 1867-1874 when he dies in 1868, the birth year is 1802. The Syntyneet, 1808-1830 lists it as 1812, and the link that Tapio sent me in my other post "entering uncharted territory" has the birth year as 1809. One or more of those is the wrong Mat or else he was lying about his age on several occasions.

How would an illegitimate child be treated back then? Would there be any social pressures on the child or mother? I think I read somewhere that it was not uncommon to wait until the woman was pregnant to marry. The man wanted to make sure that the women wasn't barren. I just wonder what the feelings would be about a man who just changed his mind in midstream. Would he suffer any socially? It wouldn't be like it is today when if you want to shirk your responsibilities you just move waaaaay out of town.
Many thanks,

Jim